Comment by neilpanchal | Hacker News Reader

Comment by neilpanchal | Hacker News Reader

Helvetica’s relatively less popular but ubiquitous cousin, Univers also got a facelift in 2010 after 30 years before Adrian Frutiger passed away under the name “Univers Next” [1], the most prominent aspect of the redesign being the return of 16 degree italics blessed by Frutiger himself.

In my view, Univers evokes a deep feeling of sophistication unlike any other font. Helvetica has the “grunge” and New York aesthetic after it took over the graphic design scene in the 70’s and 80’s whereas Univers was silently used in engineering manuals, control panels, branding, keyboards(Apple), movie credits [2] and UI without much fuss. It never became cool and edgy as Helvetica, never tried to be something it is not and doesn't have a following. I was lucky enough to visit the archives [3] in a obscure drawer at the Museum fur Gestaltung in Zurich, seeing the original manuscripts of Univers was an extraordinary feeling. Created in 1950, it is truly timeless and sits along with other giants of contemporary typefaces such as Futura and Eurostile, perhaps in the back row towards the corner.

Univers was, is and always will be.

It’s my favorite font.

[1] https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/univers-next/

[2] https://www.dafont.com/forum/read/5633/what-s-the-font-for-m...

[3] https://www.eguide.ch/en/designer/adrian-frutiger/

+1 for Univers!

Honestly, it's right there in the names. Helvetica projects a very Swiss Modern feel to it. Sometimes that's what you want, sometimes it's not. Univers is the most neutral typeface around that's got any personality at all. (I've always felt Haas Unica and many of the modern sans faces, especially the "brand" ones, have so little character to them that they're just completely bland and uninteresting.) Univers just... is. It's Frutiger's best design, and that's saying something.

Other favorites of mine include Trade Gothic (& friends) and Futura. I'm a huge fan of the 1930s-1970s "industrial" look, like you might find stamped on motor nameplates for heavy machinery, or the Apollo cockpits, or the IBM 360 consoles. These designs just scream _solid_ in a way that modern stuff... doesn't. (Maybe because it isn't.)

(Tangent to a tangent: does anyone know what typeface HP used on their equipment in the '70s through '90s? It's a very close cousin to Univers, but not identical. Maybe something internal only? I don't think it's just an odd cut of any of the usual suspects either. This is another typeface that has always connoted reliability and stuff that Just Works to me.)

Still, though, like you, I'd say Univers is my favorite more days than not. If I had to pick only one typeface, it'd be the one (more days than not)... just don't make me do that :)

You might want to reference a picture of the HP font and post it on What the Font [1]

[1] https://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/

I do have a copy of that HP font, it is very beautiful but cannot be used in anything as it 'screams HP' I have no idea though it I can share it without getting in trouble, no idea of the licencing status of that font.

Could you please email it to me? I'd love to check it out.

https://www.azfonts.net/families/hp-simplified.html

Univers makes me think of something like 2001: A Space Odyssey where computers are just running everything and they've long since figured out how to do it efficiently.

That's mostly Microgramma, although its successor Eurostile has become a default for spaceship signage.

Microgramma really hits the spot for a certain kind of 60s/70s retro-futurism.

If you like those fonts and have a Win10 installation somewhere, look for Bahnschrift. New variable type font that looks like DIN that’s included since some Windows 10 version.

NASA listed its preferred typefaces for workstation panels in Section 9.5.3.1.14.1 of NASA-STD-3000, the Man-System Integration Standards.[0] Engraved lettering, in order of preference, was set in Futura Demibold, Gorton Normal, or Gorton Condensed. They're also listed on page 113 of the Databook for Human Factors Engineers Volume I Human Engineering Data,[1] along with other very interesting design guidelines.

The Gorton typefaces were part of the MASTER COPY type templates[2][3] produced by George Gorton Machine Co. for its Pantograph engraving machines, and were commonly used for civilian and military aircraft panels produced from at least the late 40s onwards, possibly earlier (the linked catalog is from 1947). Since many of those contractors were heavily involved in Mercury and later Apollo, it makes sense that they used the same engraving machines and type. IBM also used Gorton when it started producing double shot keycaps for its keyboards in the 70s. There's also a modified version, Gorton Modified, that was created by Signature Plastics for keycaps that's still used today for SA profile caps.

Unfortunately, the Gorton plotter fonts have never been revived for digital use despite their interesting history.

0. https://msis.jsc.nasa.gov/sections/section09.htm#_9.5_LABELI...

1. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/197100...

2. http://luc.devroye.org/fonts-80708.html

3. http://gorton-machine.org/forms/form_1309d/index.html

You did mention its usage on pre-2003 Apple keyboards (Univers 57 Condensed Oblique), but I'm so nostalgic for that usage in particular that I wanted to share a photo for those who aren't familiar: https://i.imgur.com/eiSx7nn.jpg

This has nothing to do with it, but for hardware interfaces I grew to love DIN Next, which is inspired by the classic German Industry font DIN 1451 Engschrift and DIN1451 Mittelschrift

I've worked on several embedded GUIs that used the DIN font and noticed how nice it looks.

Font link: https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/din-next.

Very nice indeed, very “German”. I can see how an engineer would find this font lovely.

Big fan of Univers. The best thing about it for me is the sophistication of the letter spacing - Helvetica is just sort of banged together, and of course in modern usage is often set 'tight but not touching' for design reasons, but the spacing in Univers is so carefully done that the text has a lovely rhythm on the page. Frutiger was a genius.

What are some free alternatives to Univers and Helvetica?

Open Sans is a poor replacement. I quite like Source Sans Pro but it isn't the same as Helvetica

Posted on HN only this week, Public Sans is interesting:

https://public-sans.digital.gov/

Not quite as grotesque as Helvetica too.

Roboto feels good too

Google's Roboto is a very close drop-in replacement for Helvetica. Almost the same metrics, slightly more "condensed"/DIN feel.

You may also consider FreeSans (GNU replacement for Helvetica) and Liberation Sans (which is a metric replacement for Arial, which is an alternative for Helvetica...)

Also, what's wrong with Open Sans?

Roboto to me feels very 'edgy' and active, and less neutral than Helvetica.

Most Linux systems come with the Nimbus fonts as part of the printer drivers, and Nimbus Sans is very close, but apparently (AFAIK) only has a limited character set unless you pay for the full version. GNU FreeFont is practically the same as Helvetica and Nimbus but gives you a much larger character set for free.

Liberation is not quite as geometric as Helvetica/FreeFont/Nimbus.

Here's a comparison of a few fonts (the first is San Francisco by Apple).

https://i.imgur.com/SwxydqB.png

The 'r' and 't' in Liberation look quite a bit different than the first three, which are basically Helevetica clones. The ring in the 'b' also has a weird lower-left side. It's like 20% of the way to being a Serif font.

I haven't used MS fonts in a while but DejaVu reminds me very much of Arial, and to me it looks a lot worse. Especially the way the 'S' looks is quite awkward.

I just don't like the spacing with DejaVu... it's awkward is about all I can say about it. I do like Roboto a lot myself, and it's generally my default these days.

Tex Gyre Heros, Nimbus Sans, FreeSans, all Helvetica clones.

I find Univers much more stately than Helvetica. I think neither are very good for screen or small text, and obviously they weren’t designed for screen at the time, but you still see people specifying Helvetica variants on their webpages. Univers is very nice, but for anyone making any hobby website, maybe set it to system-ui,sans-serif or use Inter, or something modern with personality like Fira.

I have to say, the movie poster example does it no favors. But, then again, it seems to be most movie poster designer's prerogative to turn credits into vertical lines.

I'm partial to Futura and Gill Sans when it comes to sans-serif fonts. For display stuff, that is. Akzidenz-Grotesk is a pretty good text sans-serif.

The movie poster example just shows its versatility. Univers typeface consists of some 50+ fonts and it’s application varies widely.

Akzidenz Grotesk is one of my favorites right up there along with suisse intl.

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