In Sweden, until you hit ~$65,000 in yearly income, all of the taxes you pay on income (which is a relatively high rate) goes to your local government. Only after that point, your extra income goes to the federal government. [1]
This model cuts out the immensely large federal government which serves as a middle-man for distributing the income you contribute to your local community, while simultaneously sucking out so much of it— either siphoning it to federal causes, or people's salaries chipping away at it as it's sloshed around.
It's much more efficient when the majority of your income taxes support your local community directly. In the U.S. right now, these localities rely on property taxes, which is _much_ smaller of an income stream. People supporting the Scandinavian model should understand that this is necessary, and that's even more true when your country is larger.
[1] https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=files/sve/eng/i07.a... Heard this point from Swedish family and having trouble finding it online, but the typical municipality income tax is 29-34% and corresponds to equivalent tax deductions from federal taxation, which seems to effectively have the same (or near same) result.
There isn’t explicitly, and I know that’s part of what the federal top-down model tries to prevent, but is it really working? The United States’ affluent areas are night-and-day to the poor ones.
If we think about the per-capita income in poorer areas of the States, and what can be taxed off of that, it seems like it’s still enough for that community to function.
The current U.S. model seems to result in everyone getting a much smaller pie, even if the government manages to change the portions of who gets what.
Not really. States like California are net payers, but only just, because they have large diverse populations and end up getting back almost all of what they pay in.
It's true that a lot of the middle states are net recipients, but most of them are still below $4000 per capita.
And the bigger problem is that so much of the money is wasted. Each Congressman goes to Washington to bring back pork, and they do, but pork is inefficient. So they bring back $10,000 per capita in funding after paying in $6000, but only $5000 of the $10,000 is put to productive use. Does that really help the states compared to just keeping their original $6000 and using all of it productively because you don't have to negotiate with 49 other states for how to spend your own money?
Moreover, the military budget is where a sizable chunk of the pork lives.
And the problem isn't just pork, it's the general inefficiency of hoovering up your state's money and then sending it back with strings attached. Federal programs can require hot garbage like designated "affordable housing" (i.e. cordoning off a slum to concentrate poverty in) as a condition for housing grants, or "teach to the test" education programs like NCLB. It's not a stretch to claim that the states could be better off with less money but without the strings attached.
If you have to spend five hours a month to prove that you qualify for a program that pays $80/month when your labor is worth $10/hour, you're not receiving net $80/month, you're receiving net $30/month and then getting paid to labor for five hours, the second of which you could have done for any other employer using the same five hours, so the value of the program is $30/month even though it costs $80/month to the taxpayer. Plus whatever administrative costs exist on the government's side. And then whatever value the alternative employer would have derived from having a worker available to work those extra hours.
It's even possible for programs to have negative value. They can cost money and then destroy more value than that. A lot of housing and other subsides can do this, e.g. you give some people $500/month for housing, but that only causes local rents to increase by $150/month -- on everyone, including the people not eligible for the subsidy. So on paper you have a thousand people receiving $500/month and you think you've gained $500,000, but then you account for the five thousand people who now pay $150/month more, cost of $750,000, and you're net -$250,000. Meanwhile the taxpayer still had to pay $500,000 to make that happen.
But realistically how could Montana get an 80% increase in efficiency while providing similar services to the federal government?
And according to normal economics textbooks increasing market rent isn't destroying value. If more people move to a city which drives up demand and rent. Economists don't think of that as value destruction. In classic economics textbooks the value destruction caused by subsidized rent is that some people will spend $1000 on rent that they would never rent without the subsidy because they only get $800 of value from it + the dead weight loss of the taxes that funded that subsidy.
By removing all the strings. The problem with the existing federal programs is that they're numerous, complex and individually small, which is the recipe for inefficiency. That results in high administrative costs -- not only for the government but also for the recipients, and only the first cost is actually accounted for in the government budget, even though the second is much larger. Because government agencies do their tasks as a full time job but the recipients are novices who have to amortize the cost of learning and using the system over only their individual use of it. Again, suppose someone has to spend five hours a month to navigate a program that pays $80/month. Then if their labor is worth $10/hour, just their side of the transaction contains $50/month worth of inefficiency.
Even the fact that housing grants have to be spent on housing is inefficient, because it distorts the market for the thing being subsidized:
> And according to normal economics textbooks increasing market rent isn't destroying value. If more people move to a city which drives up demand and rent. Economists don't think of that as value destruction. In classic economics textbooks the value destruction caused by subsidized rent is that some people will spend $1000 on rent that they would never rent without the subsidy because they only get $800 of value from it + the dead weight loss of the taxes that funded that subsidy.
But this isn't caused by more people moving to the city, it's caused by the people who already live there getting a bunch of money they're only allowed to spend on rent. Then some of them would prefer to have fewer roommates or a bigger apartment, so they try to use the money for that, which requires the people who would otherwise live in those other apartments to have to outbid them, causing everyone to have to pay higher rents on the same apartments.
Meanwhile the rent increase goes to landlords who typically remove it from the local economy, either because the building isn't owned by a local to begin with, or because the owner is a wealthy person who then invests the money in index funds etc. which transfers ~98% of it out of the state. So the value isn't "destroyed" but it immediately leaves the state, which from the state's perspective is basically equivalent.
I'm not encouraging underage binge drinking, but if you want to have a quick pint with your high school senior, that's absolutely legal.
I live in Indiana. Lets shut down the interstates for non-Indiana citizens. Yes, that means the I69, I65, I70, I90 corridors.
The feds would have came to a 'deal', in new speak.
Of course that deduction is gone now, which just further solidifies government power.
It's a tough issue. From the Federal perspective is makes a lot of sense to get rid of the SALT deductions, and I suspect the next time the Dems are in charge they will "be unable" to restore the deduction for "reasons", since both parties want the extra revenue.
As an example, if your federal marginal rate were 25%, paying $4k in state taxes would only get you $1k off your federal taxes, not $4k.
New York City spends about $30k per homeless and you still cannot walk a block without seeing one.
It's not about the money...
That is a perspective from somebody living in a place with state income tax. Life is so much better when you are not paying state income taxes. Texas, Florida, and a few other places have no state income taxes.
0: https://taxfoundation.org/state-and-local-sales-tax-rates-20...
1: https://www.thebalance.com/best-and-worst-states-for-propert...
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_toll_roads_in_Texas#Op...
Well, there's also Defense, and then service payments on the debt. Those are the big 3 without question. So "the wrong people" must be in there somewhere?
But the real reason we give more to the feds is because if we didn't it would be AWESOME for places like New York, Minnesota, Texas, Delaware, California etc, and TERRIBLE for places like Wisconsin, Alabama, South Carolina, and Florida.
Now, consider how the above is impacted in the wake of Citizens United where $1 == 1 vote, and Corporations are People Too.
If you ask people if they support the abstract idea of having a military so we're not invaded by foreign forces, or having a program to prevent the elderly from dying in the streets, they say yes.
But then you ask them whether social security should send a larger check to a retired Jeff Bezos than a retired firefighter on a fixed income, or the government should spend billions of dollars on equipment the military itself says it doesn't need but the Congressman from the district which is getting the contract to build it says that it does, and the public support for that falls off pretty fast.
And those "features" cause those programs to cost hundreds of billions of dollars more than they need to, which money could otherwise go to infrastructure and schools and tax cuts for the middle class, all of which are also immensely popular with voters of all kinds. But won't happen when the programs absorbing more than three quarters of the total budget are administered in a federal system where the Congressmen are rewarded for bringing home the pork and Florida is an important swing state full of retirees.
And the DoD and the VA are also considered separately, but let's not pretend they're unrelated. If you have twice as many soldiers today then you need twice the VA budget tomorrow.
The idea that the poor will mass migrate to California and the rich will mass migrate to South Dakota is pretty unrealistic. The poor can't afford to live in California even with social assistance, and the rich don't want to live in South Dakota no matter how low the taxes are.
Because money buys stuff taxpayers want. Middle class people want good schools and functioning transit and to know they're going to have a secure retirement. The premise of having the government do these things is that they can do them at least as well as the market. If they succeed they'll have no trouble attracting people to come there and pay taxes in exchange for receiving those services. If they fail and are then out-competed by other states that do better, whether by leaving things to the market or otherwise, isn't that a good thing? It requires the underperforming states to improve or lose population.
I might be off the mark here, but from my understanding wasn't unrestricted migration one of the big drivers behind Brexit? Or at least the idea that the "poor countries" were "taking advantage" of the "rich countries"?
It’s true for blue collar workers as well: try hiring a contractor to remodel your house and then watch them leave the job unfinished because they got a better paying gig in UK (that actually happened to a friend of mine)
The thing about rich people moving to places with lower taxes and poor people moving to places with more services is that it's the sort of thing that seems intuitively obvious until you actually think about it, and you realize it's like arguing that lakes are impossible because water evaporates.
It's not that water doesn't evaporate. It's not that poor people don't prefer more services and rich people don't prefer lower taxes. It's that everything is not one dimensional and there are other factors that outweigh that one by enough that the lake is still full of water.
Leaving the EU will mean more migrants from outside of the EU - so will actually cause the situation a lot of Leavers were worrying about to get a lot worse.
See Robert Peston's WTF? for details.
Are you serious?
Expand your timeline.
Those high earners will screw up the economy of their destination state accidentally gutting the lower middle class, institute social programs to deal with the all the problems this creates, realized they just created the same dystopia they fled and move again.
It's like a perverse form of rolling upgrades.
You can see this process in action in places like CO and the PNW states which are starting to flip from "rich people move here" to "poor people move here". TX will probably start flipping soon.
Major urban areas with lots of job opportunity seem vacuum up the wealthy regardless of the state wide trend (no matter how bad NY state gets upper middle class people in search of a lucrative career will be moving to NYC). I'm not sure how that plays into things.