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Comment by Wowfunhappy | Hacker News Reader

I reuse every single plastic bag. I live in a tiny studio in Manhattan and they serve as small, free garbage bags.

Without plastic bags, I'll have to buy garbage bags (which are too large). I'll also have to carry around a reusable bag when I go shopping—which prevents me from going shopping on a whim, since I can't keep bags in the trunk of my nonexistent car—or use the paper bags which are still allowed. Ironically, this will cause me to be more wasteful, since I can't reuse paper bags!

They should just charge 10 cents per plastic bag. Heck, charge 20 cents. Lawmakers seem to have rejected this as a "tax on the poor", but is taking away the option from everybody any better?

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Lucky for you, you can get your plastic trash bags you so adore for exactly the price you suggested: 10¢ per bag

https://www.amazon.com/Bathroom-Trash-Bags-Garbage-Products/...

And in the meantime, the rest of us don't have to deal with the millions of bags that are bought every week just to be thrown away the same day.

This helps but doesn't really solve the problem—I don't have a good way to carry a reusable bag around with me, and doing so doesn't help the environment in my case.

I understand why a law was needed, I just wish they'd gone with a surcharge, which would likely have solved the core issue.

Try one of these. They fit on a keychain:

https://www.amazon.com/ChicoBag-Original-Reusable-Shopping-G...

As another suggestion, i've been using the 'sea to summit ultra-sil sling bag' for years and have gave them as gifts. They compress into a small bag if needed, can be zipped up (if walking back through rain), and tend to double when travelling as a clothes-packing bag. - https://www.amazon.com/Sea-Summit-Ultra-Sil-Sling-16-Liter/d...

That price is hard to believe.

Shop around, amazon's being weird. They've been retailing for ~$30 for several years, usually on other sites you can combine it with some 20% discount too.

It may be too much for some people's needs, but it's been worth it for someone that regularly travels & walks to the grocery store in a rainy region.

This is super cool, thank you. I'm not sure from the Amazon photo if it's actually small enough to comfortably leave on my keyring, but it might work!

It depends on where you keep your keys. If it's in your pocket, the Chico Bags are too big: these things are about 3"x4" and at least 1.5" thick.

You can easily clip them to a belt loop if you don't mind the aesthetics of the result. And if you have any sort of purse, bag, fanny pack, etc, they would probably fit in there, or clip on to it, fine. But actually putting them on a keyring that lives in a pocket doesn't work, at least for me.

I have them. They would fit in normal [men's] jeans pockets, but they would bulge out and probably be uncomfortable. You can easily have them in a backpack, briefcase, purse, or messenger bag, though.

These[1] are not quite as durable, but one will fit in my back pocket easily enough.

[1]: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007V6I71K/

You don't have pockets? A bag? I have one on my bike, wrapped around the handle bars.

I don't carry around a backpack or anything like that, no, and my pockets are pretty full between my phone, wallet, and keys.

sounds like a good time to start using a bag!

We should form a committee that will help him decide what to carry throughout the day and how to do it. Perhaps the NYC regulation should have included that provision.

I often carry a canvas tote bag. They fold up to be about wallet-sized - maybe not quite small enough to fit in your jeans if you're already carrying a wallet+phone etc., but easily compact enough to go in a jacket or hoodie pocket.

If you really want to use this type of bag for trash you can buy 900 of them for $15 on Amazon, 1.7 cents/bag:

https://www.amazon.com/Inteplast-THW1VAL-Handled-T-Shirt-Pol...

fold one up and keep it in your wallet when you go out and you always have one ready for impromptu shopping trips.

I stopped using shopping bags as garbage bags long ago 'cause too many of them were leaky, and more than once I left a dripping trail on my way to the garbage chute.

I just keep a folding reusable shopping bag in my laptop bag (that I always have with me when I'm commuting), so when I stop at the store on my way home it's always ready. If I don't have it handy, then I just pay the 25 cent fee for a paper bag.

ITT: this person is provided with many alternatives to help not use plastic, but is somehow able to find a problem with all of it.

Newsflash: we fucked up. big time. we're all very comfortable with our wasteful lives. It's going to be uncomfortable to change our behavior. It's worth it.

Newsflash: plastic bags are only wasteful if you don’t reuse them as small garbage bags. If you use paper bags and buy small garbage bags, you are worse than the person using the plastic bags.

Yeah. I do feel a bit like I'm making excuses to everyone's (much appreciated) suggestions, but I also feel like my problems are legitimate when, as far as I can tell, this won't actually reduce my carbon emissions.

That's the core issue. Global warming is an urgent problem, and I'm more than okay being inconvenienced to help with that. I don't think this helps, at least not relative to a surcharge.

As an aside, all of this stuff is effectively scribbling in the margins. Same with plastic straws and biodegradable utensils. That doesn't make these moves bad or even unnecessary, but I worry they're distracting from what is most urgently needed: major taxes on carbon emissions.

> I also feel like my problems are legitimate

Listen, refusing to carry a book bag when you know you are a compulsive shopper is not a legitimate problem.

Yeah, just carry a freaking book bag or backpack everywhere with you that you don't actually need because you might go to the store. WTF is happening here :-D

Also, compulsive shopper was probably not what you wanted to say.

I've noticed that as a difference between Car People and Non-car People.

The latter tend to have a backpack or other general-purpose bag with them at all times containing wallet, keys, bottle of water, waterproof jacket, reusable grocery sack etc. After a while it feels naked to go out without it.

Whereas Car People leave that stuff in the car or shove it into bulging pockets.

It's called being a human with needs and solving those needs. yes carry a back pack wherever you go. Am empty back pack is light and you won't even notice it. I guarantee there are things that you use everyday that you can put in there. Like a user below me suggested, a water bottle is a great first thing to carry with you everywhere.

It's not that you might go to the store either. OP explicitly said they do not know when they are going to shop. It is random, therefore either change your behavior to be more predictable or prepare yourself for your known unknown. Excuses like these are childish unless you have accessibility issues.

You're being awfully high and mighty jumping around this thread to criticize what is, on the scale of typical human consumption, really quite minor.

Do you own a car? Have you flown in the last year? Do you eat out or get food delivered to you? How often do you get a new laptop? Do you use air conditioning?

Apparently it's socially acceptable to look down on someone for using plastic bags, but it would be uncouth to suggest that someone use public transport or vacation domestically.

The latter examples would be an actual sacrifice, and we only want to make token gestures to feel good about ourselves and move on with our lives.

>Do you own a car? Have you flown in the last year? Do you eat out or get food delivered to you? How often do you get a new laptop? Do you use air conditioning?

No, no, yes, not in more than ten years, no.

Not really that hard.

You do realize saying yes to a single one is enough to absolutely dwarf plastic bag use, right?

>You're being awfully high and mighty jumping around this thread to criticize what is, on the scale of typical human consumption, really quite minor.

It may be minor, but if OP is complaining about things as simple as "I don't know when I go to the store, so I MUST use plastic bags", then imagine what else they are unwilling to budge on. Not to mention, broken windows theory is real, remove plastic waste from the streets like plastic bags and people will modify their behavior.

>Apparently it's socially acceptable to look down on someone for using plastic bags

I am not looking down on someone for using plastic bags, I am looking down on them for making really bad excuses for continuing to use plastic bags. It's literally a lack of effort.

That's an unfounded assumption. They might simply be frustrated at politicians rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

I don't oppose banning plastic bags in a vacuum, but I think spending political capital to do so is insane. The vast majority of the waste comes from the products and packaging that go in to the bag, not the bag itself.

So now the activity of shopping has essentially been greenwashed. I wouldn't be surprised if total consumption actually increased as a result, because it reduces the guilt one feels.

You didn't reply to my list.

>greenwashed

lol? so you consider using your own bags instead of plastic bags greenwashing?

and as to that list, i don't think this strawman needs attention. The issue we are talking about here is using plastic bags, if you want to start a different discussion on these things, feel free to dm me.

Yes, I do. By using reusable bags instead of disposable plastic bags, you might have reduced the environmental impact of your shop by a tenth of a percent. But you'll get a hit of dopamine for having done your bit, even though you actually haven't done shit.

You are the one strawmanning. You decided that OP is completely unwilling to make sacrifices to benefit the environment merely because he is resisting making an insignificant, feel good change. Based on this you jumped around the thread harassing him or her.

I then followed your line of argument and asked you if you personally had actually made a sacrifice for the sake of the environment, or are we just condemning OP based on a theoretical here.

Frankly, if conservation is important to you, you're being a poor ambassador for the cause.

we have to start somewhere. if we're unwilling to even budge on small things like carrying your own bag, do you think we're going to be able to stomach the large scale changes?

There are things I can control and there are things I can't. I can't control how much fossil fuels are used when flying a commercial airline. But if everyone makes daily changes in their lives, we can force the capitalists to make larger impact changes by sheer lifestyle. THIS IS A TEAM EFFORT and you're on the team that loses the earth.

You can absolutely change how often you fly. If you're unwilling to make real sacrifices, get the fuck down off that high horse and realize you're also on the team that loses the earth.

same can be said about plastic bags.

Except not flying makes a meaningful difference. Banning plastic bags is only relevant to dipshits. Skip a single flight and you’ve saved more petroleum than a lifetime of plastic bag use (as far as co2 emissions goes).

If you want to make a littering argument, that has legs to stand on. If you think it helps with co2, you’re in the same camp patting themselves on the back for saving water by banning automatic water at sit down restaurants.

If you are unwilling to change small things, how will big things ever change?

I've always seen these plastic bans as being more about litter prevention than carbon emissions. It's unconscionable that we've invented a material that doesn't biodegrade, and we use it for single-use items that end up in the environment, there to accumulate until everything we eat and breathe is riddled with tiny particles. Quite honestly, even plastic garbage bags are a travesty that I hope we can figure out a way to get rid of someday.

Hell, not just as garbage bags.

I reuse my grocery-store plastic bags whenever I need to transport a bunch of small objects somewhere.

Let's say I have some snacks at home, and I want to bring them to the office. What to do? Grab a Kroger bag and put my snacks in there!

(edit: also, since I check my mail infrequently, they come in really handy when I go to the mailbox, especially if I'm doing so on the way to work)

Does anyone buy trash bags that small?

Either way, I don't generate nearly enough by trash to keep up with the stream of grocery bags I bring home.

> Does anyone buy trash bags that small?

This is one of those areas where I think it makes a big difference whether you live in a proper house or a tiny apartment.

In a small studio, a large trash bag can take a week or more to fill up, but can start to smell up the small space after only a couple days. So I—and a lot of people I know—use smaller bags and take them out once every couple days.

> Without plastic bags, I'll have to buy garbage bags (which are too large)

Use produce bags for trash instead. I don't even bag all of my produce - just delicate leafy greens and things like green beans that's hard to keep together - and even then I have enough bags for my trash.

> since I can't reuse paper bags!

Why not? Is it because they fall apart or something?

1. Buy smaller garbage bags. They definitely exist here in Europe; I can't imagine they don't in the US?

2. Why can't you use one of the paper bags provided by the retailers to support your whimsical impromptu shopping trips? Or are you really a very regular whimsical shopper?

> Or are you really a very regular whimsical shopper?

All the time, yeah. I don't usually plan to go shopping, I just walk into the grocery store when I pass by.

I probably will use paper bags—but, ironically, I feel crappy about the environmental impact, since I can't reuse them as garbage bags.

What do you use for recycling? I use the paper bags for paper and cans

I use boxes from Amazon or similar. I have far too many of those already.

Here in San Francisco, we use a paper shopping bag with a flimsy biodegradable plastic bag wrapped around the bottom as a compost bag (the outer bag keeps in water/grease and keeps the paper bag from falling apart). The SF compost bin accepts a wide variety of material, and as a result we don’t generate much landfill trash.

I use one garbage bag 5-8 times. I continuously sort what I can to be recycled then dump the rest out of the bag directly into the bin. The bag will last for two months or so before I need to get rid of it and use it when I dump the trash. Try this?

Won't work sadly, my building has a garbage shoot. I can't just dump loose trash down that!

(Also feels kind of gross? The point of a small bag is so the trash won't stink up my tiny apartment.)

Get a little covered bin for under the sink or something then get a mini bag. U will easily be able to dump it into the chute. No excuses!

There's actually a sign on the trash chute that says not to dump loose items in there. Has to be in a bag of some kind.

I almost never use garbage bags. The trick is separating out food scraps / recycling / non-recyclable garbage. Most of the actual 'garbage' is...plastic bags from packaged food items and dental floss.

Disclaimer: I live in a city where composting / recycling / trash is done in separate containers. Even if one doesn't life in such an area it shouldn't stop one from pre-separating anyway even if it gets merged.

You're not the use-case this is trying to solve however.

Wouldn't charging 10 cents per bag (or more) solve the problem and allow for my use case?

I also don't think using plastic bags as garbage bags is all that unusual for people in small NYC apartments. A coworker was voicing the same complaint on Friday, for instance.

It's definitely not unusual.

Source: I do the same thing and I live in New York

Me too

Seattle permits retailers to charge 5 cents per large paper bag.

What’s wrong with paper bags for your use case?

I can't use them as garbage bags because they can't hold anything even slightly wet, like food scraps.

For food scraps, get a bag-free composting bin. I use one that uses one big silicone reversible thing that inverts to push food out and can be thrown in the dishwasher: https://www.amazon.com/Polder-Composter-Flexible-silicone-em...

For other things (kids/pets/etc.), purchase biodegradeable bags. There was a recent article on this subject: https://theconversation.com/plastic-bag-bans-can-backfire-if...

"Who were the people who reused plastic carryout bags pre-ban, and presumably bore the burden of buying trash bags post-ban? I found that bag reuse was higher for people who purchased pet items and baby items – in other words, who needed to collect and dispose of excrement. In 2017, nearly 6 percent of U.S. households had a child under 5 years old, 44 percent owned a dog, and 35 percent owned a cat." My take on this is that if you express the interest in having a child or a pet, you can afford the burden of buying biodegradable bags to handle waste. Perhaps there could be some assistance program for some low-income affected segment (i.e. adding biodegradable bags to a WIC-friendly item list).

Sigh, I know I should be composting, but it's difficult. It's not offered in my area, and I don't want the smell in my tiny apartment.

> My take on this is that if you express the interest in having a child or a pet, you can afford the burden of buying biodegradable bags to handle waste.

If the law said that stores were allowed to give out biodegradable plastic bags (maybe at some small surcharge?) I'd be fine with that. Doubly so if the law actually suggested or incentivized switching to these types of bags. As far as I'm aware this isn't what's happening.

The numbers in that article were pretty striking to me, btw:

> A shopper would need to reuse a cotton carryout bag 131 times to reduce its global warming potential [...] below that of plastic carryout bags.

> To have less impact on the climate than plastic carryout bags also reused as trash bags, consumers would need to use the cotton bag 327 times.

>Sigh, I know I should be composting, but it's difficult. It's not oferred in my area, and I don't want the smell in my tiny apartment.

Even if composting isn't offered, you could still 'fake' compost (i.e. use a composting bin anyway to reduce the need for plastig bags, but toss the food scraps in the main trash bin outside) I live in a small apartment and cook most my meals and haven't noticed much smell. You may need to double check your local rules, but last I checked mine there was no requirement by the waste-handling authority for apartment tenants to put their waste into separate bags.

>The numbers in that article were pretty striking to me, btw

Yes, wish the article did a better job of measuring it in years or months though it gets very subjective. Assuming you grab groceries weekly, the par is reached within a bit over two years. That doesn't seem too bad.

The comparison of trash bags to reuising a cotton bag 327 times doesn't make sense as that's not generally something one would do. I interpret that as saying that you can retire a cotton shopping bag, assuming shopping weekly with it, after a bit over ~6 years.

> The comparison of trash bags to reuising a cotton bag 327 times doesn't make sense as that's not generally something one would do.

They're saying: "Compared to plastic shopping bags which are also reused as trash bags, you'd have to reuse a shopping bag (just for shopping) 327 times before there's any carbon reduction."

I mean, I use paper bags for recycling and doubled up for compost. And then I buy garbage bags for extremely cheap of amazon or the corner store.

Use case? :O

Have you ever tried to carry a paper shopping bag farther than your driveway to your kitchen? They tear at the slightest movement, the handles fall off, even condensation from a cold beverage bottle is enough to cause them to disintegrate.

I'm all for getting rid of plastic bags, but paper bags are not at all viable for grocery shopping on foot. You can't walk three city blocks with arms full of paper bags. Your groceries will explode all over the street.

None of this is a problem if you plan your shopping and keep a stock of reusable bags, but the original complaint about spontaneous shopping is a valid concern.

I end up buying new reusable bags very often, and while that may feel like it's beneficial to the environment, it's not as good as it seems. Each reusable bag has as much plastic as dozens of single-use ones, and eventually they end up getting thrown out too. People don't reuse them as often as they should. I think it's better, since they end up in landfills instead of blowing around the environment and landing in water, and overall it's helping change attitudes.

> Have you ever tried to carry a paper shopping bag farther than your driveway to your kitchen? They tear at the slightest movement, the handles fall off, even condensation from a cold beverage bottle is enough to cause them to disintegrate.

Yes, and you're exaggerating. You need to considerably overload a paper bag to cause it to tear, and even when I load up a bag with beer and milk cartons and everything I haven't had this happen. Maybe your supermarket doesn't know how to make a good paper bag?

All of us don't live in sunny California. What happens when it's raining?

I live in Seattle, and paper bags hold up remarkably well, even in the rainy weather- and in my experience, they’ve been more sturdy and hold more than than plastic bags, especially when doubled up.

We also use them for our recycling- in my opinion they’re much better than plastic bags in because they stand up on their own.

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