Apple apologizes for failing MacBook keyboards yet again | Hacker News Reader

Apple apologizes for failing MacBook keyboards yet again

arstechnica.com

47 pointssubdane36 comments

The latest Mac design forced me to move to Windows again (thank you WSL) and I put the bad keyboard on 3 points:

- touchbar. Enough has been said about this so I will just say it's worthless

- bad keyboard. Butterfly keys are too problematic and as they fail you end up having to type harder so it registers. From there it's a slippery slope to a broken keyboard

- Overly huge trackpad. I don't see this get mentioned much but these things are massive on the keyboard. Takes up so much real estate so if you are typing on it you have to contort your hands and wrists so you don't accidentally brush it.

Does anyone really use the full size of that thing? Do people really find gestures to be all that important that you need as big a touchpad as this?

Currently developing on an X1 gen 6 and couldn't be happier

I have never had issues with accidentally brushing the trackpad because the palm detection is great. A large trackpad is a selling feature of the laptop.

I get that its a selling point, but is a large trackbar better? Are you really using the whole pad for your actions?

Legitimately I just tested moving around the screen. I am not using more than 3in x 2in at a time.

Given how good palm detection is, does it matter? A large trackpad means more room for 4-finger gestures and less accidental triggering of the two-finger swipe-from-right-edge gesture.

I’ve had problems with the palm detection while typing. It’s great but it’s not perfect. I’d just rather have a trackpad like the previous gen. I wish they still sold it.

There's a used market you know.

Trackpad cursor is not 1:1 it moves farther the faster you move your finger. On default speed setting slowly moving the cursor from bottom left to top right of the screen uses up nearly the entire trackpad. In any case the point is that a big pad is not a downside because of detection, so for me it makes sense that it would be as big as there is enough space for.

Don't forget about swiping and other gestures.

Moving back to a 2015 or earlier MacBook Pro, the trackpad actually feels 'small'

Anecdotally, I get accidental input from my palm at least once for every full day of work.

I completely disagree on point 2 and 3:

The trackpad is by far the biggest sell of the macbook series. If PCs came with just as well working trackpads, I would consider switching.

The keyboard is wonderful to use when it works. Mine hasn't failed, but it is a fear I have, and a fear I shouldn't have. But a working butterfly keyboard is a great keyboard.

> Does anyone really use the full size of that thing?

Yes, all the time.

> Do people really find gestures to be all that important that you need as big a touchpad as this?

You obviously don't need it. It is better than a smaller touchpad.

Ugh. Just change it back already!

I didn't have to pay for the repair because I had AppleCare—an expanded warranty program that offers free repairs for most hardware failures for three years—but the receipt Apple gave me stated that it would have cost more than $700 otherwise.

And having to buy $300 of AppleCare to get repairs for what are design defects in a >$3000 laptop is outrageous. Where are our lemon laws for laptops and smartphones??!

We'll be protected just after Apple terminates the free keyboard replacement program and starts demanding $700 to repair them. Protected by having $700 a year or maybe twice a year to renew your functional MBP keyboard subscription.

The numbers on my repair ticket add up to $795 total cost

Assuming the keyboard replacement time period is over on my 2016 MacBook Pro, I will be selling it this fall so I'm not stuck with it if it fails again.

They should apologize not only for failing keyboards, but for creating a keyboard that is likely to give a lot of people repetitive stress injuries. The previous model started this trend. Most people will, hopefully, not experience this, but for people with RSI problems, each new generation of Macs has been worse and worse. Compare this to the 2007 MBPro models and there is simply no comparison. Unfortunately, the industry seems to follow wherever Apple goes blindly and does not care about healthy use of its devices. I expect a keyboard without any moving parts where one just jams on a glass surface (like the magic trackpad 2) any year now. I just hope we have universal healthcare in the US by then as worker's compensation is not too keen to pay for obvious work injuries like this in many states.

Something like this?

http://www.primrosebank.net/computers/zx81/ZX81.jpg

Why do you think the MBP keyboard is prone to repetitive stress injuries?

Maybe the short travel distance for the keys cause them to bottom out?

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7795970

https://medium.com/@mrmrs_/i-got-rsi-and-what-happened-next-...

I don't buy the explanation given in that discussion thread. A quick googling suggests that RSI from keyboards is related to how much pressure you have to exert to move the keys, and the low-key-travel MBPs don't need much pressure to press a key. This really sounds to me like it's just anecdotes and confirmation bias (I got RSI now, it must be due to the new keyboard design, as opposed to just continued use of keyboards over a long period of time coupled with aging!)

I find both the magic keyboard and magic mouse to be absolutely diabolical for RSI. The former is too cramped, at the latter requires quite a finger arch for tapping, gestures etc. It's not as bad as the magic keyboard, but it's still quick to RSI when I use it.

I can and do happily type on the 2015 Mac Pro keyboard (although for the most part in the office, I dock the laptop and use a proper keyboard with it)

Remember all your ancestors had splinters in their hands until about 2 people ago

The problem of how to build a highly highly reliable keyboard was solved in the mid 1970s (to my knowledge, perhaps earlier). The hall-effect keyboard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_technology#Hall-effec...

I worked for a company that used them for data entry. People would type on them for 8 hours a day for months at a time. Reliably. It was hard to wear one out.

Too bad Apple won't start with something smart like that and miniaturize it for laptop use.

MacBook is supposed to be a no-trouble-device. You just buy once, sit back and enjoy for rest of the life.

Removing USB ports certainly didn't help. What's the point of a good battery life. If I've to carry connectors everywhere, I'm okay with carrying charger as well.

I don't understand Apple's obsession with making MacBook Pro thin. They are compromising on everything. Sucks!

Get a thinkpad :)

It’s looking like that, yes.

And yet even today in 2019 my coworker had to recompile and flash his thinkpad’s ACPI tables to get sleep mode working properly on Linux. His laptop kept waking up in his bag and running through its battery. That’s frustrating.

I haven't seemed to have any problems like that with a gen 3 2015 ThinkPad carbon and manjaro.

My experience has been basically flawless

Are people in general not recommending the Dell XPS's anymore?

I'm wondering about this too. I had a T480s at my last job but besides keyboard, chassis and I/O it didn't strike me as very good. Occasional power problems and rather crappy screen as always with Thinkpads. Thinking about Dell Xps 2in1 now. Only thing that I don't like about the design is the lack of USB-A. How is keyboard and trackpad?

I think it depends if you are using Linux or Windows. With Linux there still is to this date a noticeable coil whine while watching videos and doing other graphic intensive stuff.

They aren't bad but they aren't nearly as nice as the MBP.

I suspect this is an unpopular opinion, but I would 100% prefer a Dell XPS over the Lenovo think pad. Lenovo's touchpad and keyboard are garbage. And by garbage I mean they're good, but nothing special. But if I'm dropping a decent chunk of change on a laptop - I don't want good. I want better or great.

Granted I know the XPS isn't for everyone, but as someone who likes portability I think they did a pretty good job on designing the machine. I love how small the 13 inch is. I found it a joy to work on before I opted instead for a MBP.

I've compared the Dell, macbooks and the ThinkPad and I think the keyboard on the ThinkPad is the hands down winner.

Touchpad is a different story

Coworker recently got a xps 15". Paid a pretty penny for a 4k 16gb model.

Few months later he had to get the Mainboard replaced because of charging issues.

Dell have terrible QA issues, I wouldn't buy one.

I have a Dell Precision M4800 laptop (32GM RAM, I7, SSD, ...) I bought in october 2014. It's a beast! I run Linux (Mint) on it and it's really fast even if we are 5 years later. I'm a software engineer. I run many VMs, Docker, ... Compiling code (C, Java, ...). Processing big files. It's fast. No problem.

IMHO, Dell XPS laptop looking more cheap. Not really for "professionals".

I have no reason to change it right now but my next laptop will probably be a ThinkPad. Why? Honestly I don't know but in every place I go (I'm a freelancer), I see ThinkPads everywhere.

I'd consider switching, but Macs are the only machines capable of running MacOS, Windows & Linux. I can run virtually any software, compile any codebase, ship an iOS app, etc.

I really wish that Apple would get their shit together.

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