Comment by nerdponx | Hacker News Reader

Comment by nerdponx | Hacker News Reader

I know it's against the rules here to insinuate that people haven't read the article, but I don't think anyone commenting has read the article.

This isn't about the anti-vax movement as it is about the toxic relationship that the ultra-Orthodox Jewish enclaves in New York have with their surrounding communities. They are used to abusing religious exemptions in order to have everything "their way". Hopefully this is the beginning of the end of their ability to operate like this.

The outbreak in Rockland County is largely concentrated in the ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, the New York Times reported. It is believed it could have spread from other predominantly ultra-Orthodox areas around New York which have already seen outbreaks of measles.

Mr Day said health inspectors had encountered "resistance" from some local residents, which he branded "unacceptable and irresponsible".

"They've been told 'We're not discussing this, do not come back' when visiting the homes of infected individuals as part of their investigations," he said.

I was curious what’s going on here as there’s nothing in Jewish teachings[0] that would justify an anti-vaccination stance. It’s apparently more that as an insular community it is particularly susceptible to anti-vaccine misinformation[1].

0. In numerous states parents wishing not to vaccinate their children are permitted to sign a document stating that their religious convictions do not allow them to; based on this signature the child will then be permitted to attend school under the law. It is reported that small numbers of parents in Jewish schools have signed such documents. For a parent of a yeshiva student to sign such a statement in the name of Judaism is not just inappropriate, it is false. Whether a posek will rule that childhood immunizations are obligatory in halakhah or are discretionary (but highly advisable), there is no position in halakhah that says there is any prohibition or compelling reason to refrain from such vaccinations.

http://www.hakirah.org/Vol13Bush.pdf

1. “How Orthodox Jewish Nurses Are Fighting 'Anti-Vaccination Propaganda' Targeting Their Community”

http://gothamist.com/2019/03/26/orthodox_jewish_nurses_vacci...

This American Life has a very in-depth broadcast from 2014 about the many, many, issues involved. Well worth a listen:

"A Not-So-Simple Majority:

Before the war in the East Ramapo, New York school district, there was a truce. Local school officials made a deal with their Hasidic and ultra-Orthodox Jewish neighbors: we'll leave you alone to teach your children in private yeshivas as you see fit as long as you allow our public school budget to pass. But the budget is funded by local property taxes, which everyone, including the local Hasidim, have to pay — even though their kids don't attend the schools that their money is paying for. What followed was one of the most volatile local political battles we've ever encountered."

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/534/a-not-so-simple-majorit...

I’ve listened to that episode but I don’t recall vaccinations being part of it, and I don’t see anything in the transcript re:vaccinations, so I’m not sure how it’s directly relevant.

The point of my comment is that Judaism itself is not the reason these orthodox communities are rejecting vaccines, unlike some other communities/religions that have specific cultural or religious objections to medical care.

I didn't mean to imply that it was, but that's a good point.

I was meaning to highlight their resistance to intervention by the local governments whose jurisdiction they do their best to ignore.

Fair enough. I’m Jewish and part of my extended family is Orthodox (though my direct family is not), so I’ probably being overly sensitive.

BTW, you should look at this horrible anti-vax booklet (linked to from the Gothamist piece) that’s been circulated among these communities:

https://issuu.com/peachmoms/docs/the_vaccine_safety_handbook...

Ugh.

> I’ve listened to that episode but I don’t recall vaccinations being part of it

You are correct! I was attempting to add additional context and history to the Orthodox communities that are in Upstate NY. It's a long and complicated relationship that these tight-knit communities have had with their neighbors. Not unlike the complex relationships that the Amish have with their neighbors.

> The point of my comment is that Judaism itself is not the reason these orthodox communities are rejecting vaccines

I would also agree with this. From my very outsider perspective, it seems as if this is particular to just those Orthodox communities in Upstate NY, not to Orthodox Judaism in general. A very cursory google search turns up no issues with vaccinations in the Orthodox communities in New York City itself, not too far away.

Unfortunately, anyone who points this out is automatically stamped as an "anti-semite". It is a brilliantly effective way to black-hole common discourse in the social media era.

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