Comment by jelliclesfarm | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jelliclesfarm | Hacker News Reader

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How does it cut the next generation off at the knees?

You are asking those who work hard to avail a certain standard of life to be altruistic? How is this logical?

Why do you think someone would work 10-12-14 hours a day? Spend 2 hours commuting..take no vacations..take enormous risks with low pay for a start up to maybe hit the big leagues? They are risk takers. Risk takers and A types are not altruistic.

And yet..these are the people who made Bay Area desirable.

And immigrants. These are people who were so unhappy with their native countries(not coincidentally, in the Bay Area..this is majority from high population countries) that they were willing to double down and work hard and deal with immigration and leave family, language and culture behind to start a new life in a strange country.

You are asking these immigrants to say YES IN MY BACKYARD? Do you see the irony and/or the humour in that expectation?

If one wants someone to unclench their fists and give up something, then there has to be an incentive for them to do it. You are looking for altruism amongst the crushed middle class. What do they get back in return?

Convert NIMBYs with community benefits or better roads or recreational spots in the city or better schools or just about anything that would make their quality of life better. What kind of negotiation is it to ask someone to sacrifice their deeply held beliefs and fond desires for the promise of WORSENING quality of life? How will this tactic even work?

How does it cut the next generation off at the knees?

Building new housing and modifying existing housing costs several orders of magnitude more than it did a half century ago.

Why do you think someone would work 10-12-14 hours a day?

My wife works like that. She's definitely a type A. She's also an immigrant.

They are risk takers. Risk takers and A types are not altruistic.

Calling leaving room for young people to make their way, "altruism?" Arranging society to allow for the next generation is "Altruism!?" Sorry, but that's just good governance. When a society transforms, such that about the only people who can gracefully afford being 20-something newlyweds are 40-something professionals, that society has become truly ossified. In most times and places throughout history, there are places where young lower and working class people can be thrifty and make their way. It's disappearing from a lot of California.

You are asking these immigrants to say YES IN MY BACKYARD? Do you see the irony and/or the humour in that expectation?

My parents are immigrants and my wife is an immigrant. If one cares about the next generation, if one cares about upward social mobility, then "yes in my backyard" is the answer.

We went to a real estate meetup of my wife's alma mater. There was a young man who was with a project building shipping container mother-in-law units, with the goal of increasing density and reducing the cost of housing. Literally, "yes in my backyard" manifested in actual hardware.

“Calling leaving room for young people to make their way, "altruism?" Arranging society to allow for the next generation is "Altruism!?" Sorry, but that's just good governance. When a society transforms, such that about the only people who can gracefully afford being 20-something newlyweds are 40-something professionals, that society has become truly ossified. In most times and places throughout history, there are places where young lower and working class people can be thrifty and make their way. It's disappearing from a lot of California.”

Altruism : altruism noun al· tru· ism | \ ˈal-trü-ˌi-zəm \ Definition of altruism 1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others charitable acts motivated purely by altruism 2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species[..]

governance noun gov· er· nance | \ ˈgə-vər-nən(t)s \ Definition of governance : GOVERNMENT the challenges of national governance [..]

I am not saying no one should care about the next generation. I am saying that even ‘caring for the next generation’ has to be sensible and rational. How is overcrowded schools ‘caring for the next generation?” Or being away from your child due to long commutes? How is worsening air quality and high cost of living and increasing pollution..all attributes of high density cities...’better for the next generation’?

You are saying a child raised in Visalia is worse off than a child raised in Palo Alto. It’s not because of housing density. It’s because of governance that doesn’t provide for good schools in Visalia and not enough support to alleviate school pressure in Palo Alto.

High density housing does NOTHING except generate taxes for the government that spends most of it for the care and feeding of employees and to cover unfunded pension liabilities.

For what it’s worth, CA will not allow container mother in law units in the backyards. It won’t bring in as much property tax as building a three story 2400 sq ft matchbox home on a 3000 sq ft lot for a million dollars price tag to get $12k property tax per annum.

This..THIS..is the reality of California.

unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others

Taking care of the next generation is an enlightened form of selfishness.

I am saying that even ‘caring for the next generation’ has to be sensible and rational.

I agree.

How is overcrowded schools ‘caring for the next generation?”

I'm for school choice.

High density housing does NOTHING except generate taxes for the government that spends most of it for the care and feeding of employees and to cover unfunded pension liabilities.

[citation needed]

In New York, it seems to have created a vibrant and diverse society. (While housing price pressure seems to be undoing that there as well.)

For what it’s worth, CA will not allow container mother in law units in the backyards.

Didn't Fresno pass favorable legislation?

This..THIS..is the reality of California.

Shortsighted self interest? No disagreement.

Fresno is not the Bay Area. I am all for building high density homes in Fresno. Not so much in Bay Area because we are full capacity.

California is more enlightened and egalitarian than most other states in the country. If making rational choices is ‘shortsighted self interest’, I can see how I am comfortable live that.

California is more enlightened and egalitarian than most other states in the country.

That's the narrative California tells itself. The reality is a bit more nuanced than that. The visible income inequality in the Bay Area puts me in mind of France before the revolution. (Another wine growing world power with world renowned culture and upper classes concerned with fripperies in the midst of incredible squalor.)

I see your perspective - however, the irony to me is that the alternative to urban density is to price out the people who are already there (decreasing their quality of life).

Increasing demand while keeping supply constant will (continue to) be bad news for lower and middle income people.

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