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Comment by kough | Hacker News Reader

The way I've switched from a 'wake-at-2-pm' kind of person to a 'wake-at-6-am' kind of person is setting an alarm, popping 200mg caffeine + 200mg modafinil, then going back to bed. In 10 minutes I'll be right back up and ready to go to the gym and go about my day. I've started dialing back the modafinil since it seems unnecessary to get up anymore and I have some ethical concerns (see comment below.)

I'll also +1 the friction removal concept -- laying out my gym clothes the night before really helps me get out the door as soon as I'm up in the morning. Otherwise, I'll tend to want to go back to bed.

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> 200mg modafinil

The wide use of drugs as performance enhancers in our industry really makes me unhappy and uncomfortable. (I guess it probably exists in other industries too?)

I can't work out how to properly put into words how or why it makes me uncomfortable. But it seems like instead of drawing lines and saying people shouldn't need to take ADHD medication to focus, or modafinil to work unnatural hours, or ambien to sleep on planes, we're just going along with it. Like the work should come first, and of course we should take drugs to allow us to meet work expectations, or to get the upper hand in intra-employee competition, etc.

Same here, but I would rather go on unemployment benefits than hurting my body to become a more efficient work machine. Life is too short.

I'm deeply uncomfortable with it too, and that's why I'm probably going to taper down to a complete stop. It's just hard to want to do that when I'm much more focused and productive when I'm on strong stimulants. All of my most effective coworkers are medicated.

Are you happy when you're more focused and productive? (I am, fwiw, this isn't an "are you really happy" question.)

This isn't sustainable. Ask older folks around you who used to use a lot of stimulants when they were younger, and you'll find the answer. Stimulant use is a lot harder on the body and the mind the older you get. Caffeine, as a light stimulant, is better, but can also be problematic.

I've encountered these work environments before and I wouldn't want to again. In my case it was a bunch of young people pushing themselves to the brink hoping to win the startup lottery as early as possible. They didn't of course. I hope your work environment isn't like this.

I quit caffeine (stomach issues) over a period of a few weeks, I replaced my morning up and moving cup with a shower as cold as I can stand, I challenge anyone to still feel sleepy after that (assuming they slept well).

It isn’t fun some days though.

fwiw I work 9-5, i just like being more productive during that time.

This strikes me an unhealthy and unethical, if even legal.

Like my classmates who took adderal to get good grades, definitely. It shouldn’t be tolerated and should be tested. But then all of academia needs to change.

Modafinil has basically as safe as caffeine, isn't it? The big difference with caffeine is that many governments permit caffeine in food/drink but control modafinil, but trusting governments to have good opinions on drug safety seems a little unsubstantiated. I think modafinil is less addictive than caffeine and has fewer withdrawal problems. And it's not a drug like cocaine or alcohol that has serious long-term side effects. So I think the only serious reason to avoid it, if it doesn't cause you side effects, is a morality that says certain drugs are bad. (Which isn't even consistent - there are plenty of moralities in the world that say that caffeine and alcohol are bad too, and that at least makes sense.)

It's not unusual to feel gut-uncomfortable with technology enhancing the lives of humans beyond where nature left us, but at the end of the day, I have trouble seeing how you can say using modafinil to get your job done is bad but using eyeglasses to get your job done is good.

It's not "governments" that control drugs, but the FDA - in the US - and it's comprised of M.D.

Do M.D.s generally recognize modafinil as less safe than caffeine and alcohol? It seems unlikely to me that the political will exists in the US to schedule either, regardless of what doctors actually think.

My claim is that no research exists that argues that modafinil is more dangerous than caffeine. (I'm not 100% sure about this claim, and it's easily debunkable. And for what it's worth I take caffeine and have never taken modafinil.)

That’s an odd bit of moralizing. We’ve been taking drugs to alter our mental state for thousands of years (alcohol, caffeine). I don’t know about Modanifil, but Adderall is one of the most well studied drugs out there, so much so that we give it to children for permanent daily use. A therapeutic dose is much easier on your cardiovascular system than the double shot espressos that everyone chugs down.

Alcohol rarely improves work performance.

Caffeine's cognitive effects are mixed. It's mainly used as an inferior substitute for sleep.

The effects of lifelong Adderall use are not well studied.[1] The effects of untreated ADHD and narcolepsy are.

[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/mp200890

I have ADHD but I've never took any medication for that. Would you mind to share some of these effects? Because over the years I feel like my attention span has shrank considerably.

> The effects of lifelong Adderall use are not well studied.[1] The effects of untreated ADHD and narcolepsy are.

Emphasis mine.

I think this - right there - seems to be the reason why we continue and probably should continue to give stimulants to certain grown ups.

>>200mg caffeine

I used to be a big caffeine drinker. In my experience the problem with caffeine is that your body's tolerance to it seems to increase and so you need to keep increasing the dosage in order to get the same effect. It ended up being a net negative for me.

I've noticed that the best way to wake up early is simply to go to sleep early. Takes a bit of work at the beginning if you've developed some bad habits but eventually you can get used to it. Seems to be more mental than physical.

Also, caffeine should really be used only for emergencies in my opinion. Like if you've had very little sleep but you still need to be productive. Other than that I would stay away from it. Your body really does not need daily doses of caffeine to function, just like it does not need nicotine nor alcohol nor any other drug (assuming no medical need). They are just net negatives.

Drink green tea if you really feel like having some mild stimulant every day.

Isn't green tea quite high in caffeine?

It is, but it also has L-Theanine, which moderates some of the effects of the caffeine you're consuming in green tea.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18681988 (The combined effects of L-theanine and caffeine on cognitive performance and mood)

"Green tea. usually contains around 25 milligrams of caffeine per 8-ounce serving. It's about half of the amount of caffeine found in a typical cup of black tea and one-quarter of the amount found in a typical cup of coffee."

From: https://www.thespruceeats.com/caffeine-in-coffee-tea-cola-76...

Depending on the brand, it's equivalent to a half of cup of coffee. Although green tea contains l-theanine which helps offset the jitters from caffeine. Personally I try to limit caffeine to the most bare minimum as I personally find that it causes a reduction in my emotional spectrum.

I'm surprised that you're commenting about the caffeine and not the modafinil!

Caffeine has lots of wonderful effects on the mind and the body. It was essential in helping me switch to an earlier routine: can't go to bed at 10pm if you're not tired because you woke up at noon; best way to be tired at 10pm is to get up at 6am; caffeine helped me get up at 6am.

Cycling your caffeine intake is a great way to still reap the benefits of caffeine without building up a tolerance.

>>I'm surprised that you're commenting about the caffeine and not the modafinil!

I know nothing about modafinil.

>>Caffeine has lots of wonderful effects on the mind and the body

It allows you to be productive even after not enough sleep. Unfortunately you can only keep this up for so long. In my case I now only use caffeine when I really need it. I'll gulp down three or four cups of coffee if I need to do all nighters. And because I have virtually no tolerance to it anymore the caffeine will work like a charm and I will not feel tired at all.

> Cycling your caffeine intake is a great way to still reap the benefits of caffeine without building up a tolerance.

I've tried this. Doesn't work for me. Seems like my body built a tolerance to caffeine, and no amount of break from it (even a month) will reset that tolerance.

You probably need to avoid caffeine altogether. Might try theobromine from brewed roasted cacao.

Interesting, I'll look into that. Thanks

Counterpoint: Coffee is delicious, and may have some health benefits. But, mostly, it's delicious.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-latest-scoop-on-the-...

I too find caffeine delicious, but then I realized that I have to have coffee every morning, the same amount, and can't have more coffee during the rest of the day, and am not even awake enough to enjoy the coffee I do have in the morning.

So I've been cutting down and drinking lower-strength of coffee, and more recently tea and lower-strength tea (which is also delicious). There are other delicious things I can eat and drink the rest of the day that don't have drugs in them.

I find it strange how many people have this puritanical mindset that just because something is pleasurable or can induce some degree of physical dependency this automatically equates to something with negative health consequences or something that they should feel guilty about imbibing.

Coffee is one of the, or the best, source of antioxidants in the standard American diet. Barring pre-existing Cardiac health issues there is no harm to daily use as long as you don't exceed maximum recommended caffeine doses, which was around six shots of espresso or equivalent.

Furthermore "In some publications, caffeine and trigonelline are considered to be antioxidants also." There is much more medical evidence that coffee is uniquely beneficial than otherwise.

Just one (of many) sources and source of above quote: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4665516/

I’ve found melatonin effective for resetting my sleep schedule.

For people like me who often find "go to sleep early" impossible, try to get in an hour or so of solid exercise at least every couple of days--running, biking, lifting, or whatever--something that will fully exhaust you physically. And if possible, do it outside in the sun. This is the best way I've found to regulate sleeping patterns, and it also counteracts caffeine if I've had too much. I haven't found anything else that works as well.

Serious question: Is it really worth the trade off? My biggest fear is to start needing prescription drugs for anything.

Have you tried lowering your dose? I only need 50 mg of moda in the morning to wake up and be productive.

> setting an alarm, popping 200mg caffeine + 200mg modafinil

Wow, pumping yourself full of drugs just so you can be a better cog in a machine?

Thanks, but honestly that's a non-starter. I'm not sure how we got to this point, but please reconsider - some employers might actually look at this and think that's an acceptable thing to suggest to an employee.

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