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I've heard the same horrific shit in casual conversation in numerous pubs in the UK in the last 30 years and the people in there certainly don't know what 4chan or 8chan are. In fact the horrible things pre-dated the proliferation of internet connectivity.

This isn't a specific platform problem but a problem with a subset of humanity.

That's true. But people engaging in "casual" conversation over beer aren't inciting each other to commit violent acts of hate.

But in those rare instances where a bar crosses over into openly supporting that type of speech, the police start taking an interest and monitoring that bar and its customers. And if a line gets crossed with respect to incitement, conspiracy, etc., the local municipality will usually pull the bar's liquor license and get it shut down to prevent future such crimes from being organized or incited at that bar.

So, really, you're actually quite spot on with the bar analogy. 4chan/8chan are exactly like a skinhead bar that's getting shutdown because the customers kept inciting each other to kill people and actually followed through.

Actually sometimes they are inciting it. There was a “paki patrol” (their term not mine) that originated in a local pub in a town I lived in. They did do things about it. We pulled one guy out of the river and helped him after they had chucked him in and threw bricks at his head and ambled off when they got bored.

Incidentally the police did nothing.

Edit: this was early 90s.

I'm not sure why a single incident of the police failing to enforce the laws over 2 decades ago during the notoriously racist Thatcher era is relevant to a discussion of incitement as it is enforced today?

A pub audience is probably a handful of people, some platforms have a reach many magnitudes larger and this changes the dynamic.

>More than a dozen mass murderers in the past few years took 4chan and 8chan seriously enough to murder hundreds of people.

If I understand correctly, you're making an argument that goes around this: Exposure to freedom of speech is dangerous to society.

From this, you're proposing: All online discussion should be curated.

I don't want to live in such a world, so I kindly disagree with your proposal. Adults should be able to talk about whatever they want, and no third party should decide what they can or cannot read.

For this to be possible, communities with a very light handed approach to moderation should be allowed to continue to exist. This includes those that allow anonymous posting, as there's enough precedent in human history on perfectly fine ideas that are now generally accepted have been met with hostility. If posting safely is not an option, many will choose to not post at all. Thus ideas would get repressed.

If I understand correctly, you're making an argument that goes around this: Exposure to freedom of speech is dangerous to society.

If I understand you correctly, you're making the argument that inciting someone to commit violent acts of murder is freedom of speech which is good for society.

I believe in freedom of speech. I've defended it in court. What happens on 4chan and 8chan isn't free speech. It's acts of incitement that just happen to take the form of text.

Adults should be able to talk about whatever they want, and no third party should decide what they can or cannot read.

You don't understand that free speech relates to the words and ideas. Free speech means that the people on 4chan and 8chan can use whatever words they want, and spread whatever ideas they want. So long as they aren't committing criminal acts such as incitement. The words and ideas are protected, not the acts they represent.

For this to be possible, communities with a very light handed approach to moderation should be allowed to continue to exist. This includes those that allow anonymous posting, as there's enough precedent in human history on perfectly fine ideas that are now generally accepted have been met with hostility. If posting safely is not an option, many will choose to not post at all. Thus ideas would get repressed.

I agree. And if 4chan and 8chan were solely about the sharing of ideas, I would be opposed to banning them...in the US, where the law would protect such speech, however abhorrent it is. But 4chan and 8chan long ago crossed over the line into being more than just sharing ideas...they're now websites where people incite and plan violent crimes.

Any website could be a place where it is "more than just sharing ideas...they're now websites where people incite and plan violent crimes."

There are many SFW boards on 4chan related to specific hobbies. I have learned a lot from diy, fa, mu, g, and ck. There are many NSFW boards on 4chan that do contain posts inciting violence.

The same situation is present on reddit, but due to advertiser interest, subs get banned.

There were crazy people before 4chan and there will be crazy people after. Removing a site does less than helping those in need before they become radicals.

Agreed. Plus when 4chan, a heavily moderated site gets blocked, people will just move to one of the less popular sites that may be less moderated. I used to run one of them and any time 4chan would change their rules, I would get a flood of new people.

>But 4chan and 8chan long ago crossed over the line into being more than just sharing ideas...they're now websites where people incite and plan violent crimes.

This is a quite excessive claim. While posting in these communities is extremely easy, they are also extremely moderated. I'm somewhat familiar with the sites, and I know that while hateful posts do happen, they do get removed and posters do get banned fairly quickly. Often, within seconds. What could pass legally as actual incitement is extremely rare. Most communities and regular threads in these places are extremely friendly.

Ultimately, freedom of speech isn't about being able to say whatever you want, but about others being able to say that which you don't like. Few people understand that.

> ...they're now websites where people incite and plan violent crimes.

Can you cite any evidence that people are planning crimes on a public-only anonymous forum that has no vetting of its members?

Again, there are Nazi forums that are public, there are also Nazi networks that are certainly not public and where such attacks may have been planned, but 4chan? That would be a pretty absurd place to plan anything.

As for incitement, at least in the legal sense in the US, the bar for that is quite high:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action

> they were radicalized and incited by 4chan and/or 8chan

If you can prove that statement then it certainly deserves to get shutdown, but you cant

if you read something in the newspaper and it makes you angry and/or sparks an extreme reaction, should that newspaper be banned? or a TV network, or any other news source?

Its a slippery slope if you go down this road IMO

if you read something in the newspaper and it makes you angry and/or sparks an extreme reaction, should that newspaper be banned? or a TV network, or any other news source?

Too many non-lawyers on this board think that saying "slippery slope" makes two things on the opposite ends of the spectrum one and the same, and that's not true at all. The law is perfectly capable of handling degees of difference. After all, there are no less than 5 degrees of homicide (more, depending on jurisdiction).

It's quite possible to ban a newspaper that says "Kill all the X this weekend" without it having any bearing on a newspaper that opines "X people should die." If you can't see the difference between the two, then I won't bother responding further.

> That's not true...

What exactly isn't true? The guy did have that Twitter.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/4vW9tadY1zUt-CwkgRo6DWG7N...

> ...and it's notable that you had to create a new account just to make this FUD claim.

I created this account three days ago to comment on an entirely unrelated matter.

> Those murderers may all have used Twitter and Facebook to try to disseminate their idea vomit...

So you agree that Twitter and Facebook are linked to the murderers?

> ...but they were radicalized and incited by 4chan and/or 8chan.

That's a pretty questionable claim. The guy had a manifesto similar to Breivik. Would you say Breivik was radicalized by 4chan? He holds specific political beliefs, whereas on places like 4chan, no belief is taken serious at all. There are real Neo-Nazi forums where there is serious discussion on Neo-Nazi ideals, but 4chan isn't one of them.

> More than a dozen mass murderers in the past few years took 4chan and 8chan seriously enough to murder hundreds of people.

Again, these forums are made up of pure shitposting. Nobody knows anybody. Nothing on there is taken serious, even things that should be taken serious. It's a brain dump.

It appears that you aren't very familiar with 4chan or 8chan based on your other posts about not knowing much about them.

4chan and 8chan have numerous skinhead forums. They are two of the most popular forum sites for skinheads and white nationalists.

Again, these forums are made up of pure shitposting. Nobody knows anybody. Nothing on there is taken serious, even things that should be taken serious. It's a brain dump.

This is objectively not true. You can repeat it all you want, and you might even believe it because it's true for you, but plenty of people take the stuff on 4chan and 8chan at face value and take posts their seriously.

> It appears that you aren't very familiar with 4chan or 8chan based on your other posts about not knowing much about them.

I never said anything like that. I said I haven't been on 8chan before today. You shouldn't lump both together like that anyway, it's disingenuous.

> 4chan and 8chan have numerous skinhead forums.

I wouldn't qualify /pol/ or /b/ as "skinhead forums" by any reasonable standard.

> They are two of the most popular forum sites for skinheads and white nationalists.

4chan has subforums for anime, lgbt, video games, porn and all kinds of other things. It's a popular site in general and there's people from all over the political spectrum.

>4chan and 8chan have numerous skinhead forums. They are two of the most popular forum sites for skinheads and white nationalists. //

Isn't that kinda helpful for law enforcement. There are so many ways those planning violence could interact privately, that they'd do it all in the open is a massive help, no?