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Europe is all about quality of life raises rather than cash raises. My passion is acrobatics and I negotiated less working hours rather than a big pay raise. This year I'll do partner acrobatics teacher training for a month in spain and still extra time left over for staffing a meditation retreat over christmas. I'm in Austria and my progression is as follows. (All of below hours are flex time, all overtime can be redeemed as time off at a later date) (* is negotiated raise)

2011 - Moved from Canada to Austria fresh out of college

2011 - 26k€ 38.5H/W Company 1

2012 - 31k€* 38.5H/W Company 1

2013 - 35k€* 38.5H/W Company 1

2014 - 37k€* 38.5H/W Company 1

2015 - 46k€* 38.5H/W Company 2 - Mandatory overtime 10/month

2016 - 49k€* 38.5H/W Company 2 - Mandatory overtime 10/month

2017 - 50k€ 38.5H/W Company 2 - Mandatory overtime 10/month

2018 - 35k€* 30H/W Company 2

2019 - 42k€ 30H/W Company 3

A few notes -> Taxes are very high, but so is support. I have no worries health care, dental, etc everything is covered. 5 weeks paid vacation a year, unlimited sick days. I end up with about 1000€/month after rent/food/entertainment and I live very comfortably. I'm not rich but it works well for me.

I also moved to Graz, Austria 5 years ago for FW development. What brought you here all the way from Canada and what's your field of activity if I may ask? You aren't also in Graz aren't you? :)

I've also noticed this BS in some contracts of Austrian companies that include mandatory overtime or worse, all-in contracts. I tried to negotiate my way out of that but got funny looks and some said that'll hinder any career progression in that company as that's seen as not being a team player.

The mandatory overtime is a thing in Japan, too, though it's more like 30-40 hours built into the salary, not 10. You start getting paid 1.25x with your 41st hour of OT in a month.

Salaries are Europe-like, too. Having experienced all three, I'd move from Japan to Europe for the QOL increase before moving to the US to get more money, I think.

I moved here originally for love, then stayed because it feels like home now. I'm in Linz, I started in Testing, moved to back end in Java and am now full stack + devops. Still spend most of my time hacking away at Java on the back end though. ^^ I pass through Graz every now and then, I have friends there and there's an amazing acrobatics community there.

That's a cool story. Don't know if you'll read this but hit me up, it's cool to meet new expat techies in Austria. My e-mail is in my profile. If you're ever around Graz you're invited to a coffee.

Don‘t focus on the huge money aspect. There is a lot of selection bias here, only few people make this much outside of some very particular areas/companies.

Comparing Germany (where I’m also from) and the US, I’d say that Germany still gives much higher standard of living at the same salary, especially due to lower rents in the big cities.

FYI my progression

120k joining top3 mgmt consulting after PhD, stayed for 4yrs, left when being promoted to project leader (200-250k)

200k in mgmt position at e-commerce company in Berlin

Anyway, I think money matters way less than happiness in the job and a good work-life-balance, at least when you have no debt and aren’t struggling financially (=there is enough money left for vacations and some savings)

This is a lot of money and some massive savings you're talking about. How many hours are you working per week ? (I'm asking this from the other side of the Rhine where such wages are phenomenal).

About 50. Some colleagues on the same level work more but I’m just too tired after that.

Did you take a pay cut moving from consulting to e- commerce company? Did it make your work life balance better?

Yes I agree that wanting more money can result in frustration as in Germany such salaries are not that common outside of management positions or specific companies, but I have some plans to fulfill - buying a Porsche; travelling the world; opening an NPO in a developing country, employing literate and teaching underprivileged, etc..

With the pennies that I'm earning, I wont be able to save as much, wont be able to retire as early as I would like to and, most importantly, the impact of final initiative won't be that high. So for me it is important that I earn huge..anyway, it's a choice of thinking, I'm happy with my life even now, just not quenched with the money I have..

Yes and yes. The work life balance was one primary motivation among other things.

I don’t have aspirations to buy a Porsche and I would have taken the job for much less. I was genuinely surprised when I got the offer.

Look, you're right about happiness, but let me make 200k/year for about 5 years and then I'll publicly share your view. Also, that's Berlin; the situation in NRW (excluding D & K) is a bit different. Currently earning 1/4 from what you earn, with 6 years experience in the same company.

> 200k in mgmt position at e-commerce company in Berlin

For the context: this is an insane amount of money in Berlin, which used to be one of the poorest capitals in Western Europe. Most software engineers make 60-70k.

> after PhD,

A quick question: does it matter from which university one received his PhD in Germany?

I read multiple comments, that unlike in the US and in the UK, most universities in Germany are considered more or less equal.

But wouldn't a MSc / PhD from Humboldt University of Berlin be considered above a MSc / PhD from University of Potsdam when applying for jobs and negotiating the compensation?

In Germany the university playing field is much more level than elsewhere. While certain universities stand out in certain areas, it’s not a deciding factor in most cases. Many of the small town universities are actually quite renowned.

The big divide is Universität vs Fachhochschule (university of applied sciences), which are in many fields considered inferior unless they have special profile (eg highly international).

Out of curiosity, what did you study since I've never heard anyone in Germany earning so much out of university?

Thanks for this very informative post! Here in Japan, salaries are much more Europe-like, whereas hours are (I suspect) US-like -- the worst of both worlds!

My pay as a non-software-engineer doing a lot of Excel monkey work in the back office of a fintech company. I'll use yen for consistency; today the exchange rate is about 110 yen per US dollar.

1999-2001 3.6M base

2002-2006 3.6M base + 1.0M (night shift bonus)

2007-2008 4.2M base + 1.0M (night shift bonus continues)

2009-2015 4.5M base + 700k bonus + 1.0M night bonus

2016 4.5M base + 300k bonus + 500k night bonus (rotating shifts; fewer nights) + 200k vested stock options (issued 2012, vested after 4 years)

2017 4.4M base + 300k bonus + 500k night + 200k stock

2018 4.4M base + 300k bonus + 1.0M night (worked nights all the time again) + 80k stock (stock value plummeted)

2019 4.4M base + 300k bonus + 90k stock (no night shifts anymore)

I'm not a native speaker of Japanese, and have no desire to go into middle management, so I suspect things will continue as they are now indefinitely. There's a lot of pressure to reduce salaries and we have onerous KPI demands: five to seven every half year, all of which must be met to maintain salary. It gets harder and harder to keep coming up with ideas for them as the years pass, and I'm thinking of giving up my full-time hard-to-fire status and becoming a contract worker. Bonuses and stock options would disappear but stock options earned in past years would continue to vest. And my stress level would drop by quite a bit!

I'd say tech salaries highly depend on your company and even the type of position you're in.

At foreign FAANG (which means Google and Amazon here) and investment banks traditionally you can expect upwards of 10M JPY/y (total compensation) for moderately senior engineering positions and even over 15M for more senior positions. But it's not just foreign companies. Some Japanese companies like Mercari and Fast Retailing are now in an engineer hiring craze and they're offering highly competitive salaries.

My personal history in Japan: 2015-2016 8M JPY 2017 12M JPY (renegotiated my salary) 2018 13M JPY 2019 14M JPY

That's a pretty impressive bump you negotiated! Same company, or a different one?

I'm in fintech too, but I'm not an engineer; more like a dime-a-dozen Excel monkey. Most people I know doing programming are terribly paid (<250k per month); they make even less than generic office workers, who make over 1600 yen per hour.

Having entered my 40s and not being in management, I suspect that my chances for a pay increase have long passed. I went to graduate school in my spare time (when I was working nights) and might try going into academics if I can't take company life any more.

Do you expect to see increases beyond that 14M or do you think that's the cap?

You know, that the salary m America is partly so high, because a lot of it goes to retirement, paying back your university etc.

Best plan for sure is :study in germany for almost free, live in US and enjoy a lot of money.

Sure, it is kinda abusive toward the system. But as long it is possible...

> I found everything better

That is because everyone in the US lives above their means. I am astounded at how frivolously my acquaintances live, despite having huge student and car loan payments. Home ownership is also worryingly low among urban youth.

The trend towards buying SUVs is IMO another sign of this. The coupe / hatch is way cheaper, but they must have the SUV despite not needing it as much.

HN is the exception, with a lot more people being fans of a minimalistic and careful approach to spending.

In Austria, the upper end for senior developers seems to be 70k. Architect roles seem to range from 70k to somewhere below 100k...

Even big companies often have a fixed upper limit, like "we can't give him more than 65k" and they rather wait many months until they find a good one who will work for that money or rather hire "IT consultants" from Accenture/CapGemini etc. that cost more than twice as much. It's kind of sad.

It's improving a lot in Austria right now I feel like, there's huge demand. I have friends that thanks to big bonuses are taking home ~100k€ for developer positions. (They are very good at what they do)

Out of curiosity, what field/jobs are those 100k/year people doing, if I may ask?

Mostly Java Backend or full stack, they have a niche in a smaller company and get noticed for delivering great results.

100k for an employed developer position is very, very far away from the median.

I've noticed the salary cap is quite popular in Austria as a wage suppression technique to keep salaries low acroos the board and not generate competition among companies for employees. Are your numbers valid for Vienna or Graz?

I only know about Vienna.

How much is 70k after taxes in Austria?

43.500 a year, that's 12x3626. Keep in mind we do have "free" health care/insurance included. This is a great income and will allow you a comfortable life including vacations.

There is very little concept of thrift left in the United States, so if you make a huge salary the entire economy is designed for you to spend it all and more.

What do I mean by that? The more you make, the more banks aggressively offer you credit. You have no idea how many people I know that make several hundred thousand a year, but are crippled by debt.

Not just mortgages on big houses, if you make a lot of money banks literally mail you forms saying "Sign this and mail it back and we will deposit $100,000 into your bank account, Pre-Approved."

I agree with the other person who commented and said it would be better to live in the US for 10 or 20 years and then return to Germany to retire.

It’s a matter of personal discipline. There is an enormous variety and quantity of inexpensive calories available as well. Some people take excessive advantage of that and others don’t.

I get those same credit line offers and just don’t respond. We live in the same house we bought 12 years ago when I was making around half of what I make now. We drive our cars for 8-15 years and usually buy them used (my cheap electric LEAF was bought new only because of the $10K in government incentives made buying used make no sense, all others were used).

Frugality can easily be done; it does take some discipline. I see colleagues with $100K kitchen renovations and two leased luxury automobiles. I am quite sure we’re headed to a happier and more secure retirement, early if we like, but more likely simply flush and setting our kids up for a good financial grounding and head-start.

Salary growth rate hasn’t been that high in Germany for the last 10 years. Also, 85k€ is pretty decent. Way more than the average salary: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/75731/umfrage...

Although compared to tech jobs in the US, it seems pretty low (but the numbers here are also biased).

In Germany, your best bet apparently is a management position or having your own business. This, of course, takes time. But it’s also very rewarding.

Just curious, why don't you move ?

Well moving, as much as i would like to do, is not that easy..I live with my wife who is also working. She is not comfortable in working in English. We have bought a house in south of Germany which has to be paid off..uncertainty in jobs and hire & fire culture is pretty scary..also, we live close to our parents and extended family, where we have lots of fun over the weekends..