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Comment by elagost | Hacker News Reader

From the TOS:

By uploading, distributing, transmitting or otherwise using Your Content with the Service, you grant to us a perpetual, nonexclusive, transferable, royalty-free, sublicensable, and worldwide license to use, host, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, and display Your Content in connection with operating and providing the Service. The Company does not guarantee the accuracy, quality, or integrity of any user content posted.

They also have a ban against distributing or even talking about macro/autohotkey programs, and, of course, they can see every single message and piece of content you put on the service.

It's 20XX; why is there anything but harsh condemnation for services like this? Modern communication platforms should not be set up this way.

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The first part of the TOS is standard, even something as simple as showing a thumbnail of a posted picture (which discord does) requires it.

AutoHotKey have their own relatively active Discord server, so obviously, you can talk about it. What is banned is the use of macros on the Discord client itself.

As for seeing every single message, then yes, certainly. That's how you get the entire conversation history when you first log into a server, search, previews, etc... Discord is not privacy oriented, it is a convenient platform, and great for semi-public conversations. It is not a replacement for Signal, and vice-versa.

Modern communication platforms don't have to be all privacy-oriented. Just like in real life, there are public and private places, with different expectations.

> Modern communication platforms don't have to be all privacy-oriented. Just like in real life, there are public and private places, with different expectations.

I wish more people understood this. Discord's primary design is large open public spaces; layers of encryption and e2e make no sense.

Well, it's not necessarily either/or. Discord could also include tools for private conversations. A lot of people started using as a replacement for Teamspeak, after all. I don't think it would get nearly as much initial traction if they were just a chat room platform.

"What is banned is the use of macros on the Discord client itself."

Good luck stopping that when the functionality is built-into my Logitech G15 (when the drivers are installed instead of using the default HID input drivers.) Built by gamers for gamers, HAH!

This is the most well-thought-out response in the thread. My initial knee-jerk is too extreme. Thank you for the sanity check.

And that was a mature response from you. Glad to see this exchange :D

Why are macros banned? What kind of stuff can you do with macros? Spam?

Discord is primarily "gamer" focused, so macros are often pointed out as a means of cheating or otherwise gaining unfair advantage. AutoHotkey (https://www.autohotkey.com/) could be used to chain a bunch of actions in a game together and perform some sort of difficult action with minimal effort, so that's discouraged.

But the rule is very odd. Most "gaming" focused mice/keyboards have software and buttons dedicated to performing macro functions, and they're present on major brands like Razer and Logitech equipment.

Not only is the first part of the TOS sort of standard, its the decent version. It ends with the "in connection with the service". Many TOS just give a carte blanche permission for any reason at all. This one is at least the reason you expect: You upload or write content into this, and Discord can act like Discord with that content.

How would they be able to distribute your content (messages, images, etc) to other people if they didn't have the license to do so?

Every chat service and social media has this clause because they couldn't send your messages without it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/discordapp/comments/3r3rrt/question...

Please do your research before bringing out the pitchforks.

How would anyone be able to look at your house if they didn't own it?

No, the expansive licensing Discord demands here is not required to operate the service.

It absolutely is. You know who else has a license like this? hacker news. (https://www.ycombinator.com/legal/)

    By uploading any User Content you hereby grant and will grant Y Combinator and its affiliated companies a nonexclusive, worldwide, royalty free, fully paid up, transferable, sublicensable, perpetual, irrevocable license to copy, display, upload, perform, distribute, store, modify and otherwise use your User Content for any Y Combinator-related purpose in any form, medium or technology now known or later developed.

also microsoft, google, reddit, twitter, etc, etc, etc, etc

Hacker News is publicly viewable without an account. Totally different.

Discord tricks the user into using it as a private messaging platform. Its main draw, as I understand it, is the IRC channel clones ("Servers"), which can be public or private/invite-only. It's also got no privacy or security options for the direct person-to-person messages, which people use essentially as an SMS/iMessage/WhatsApp replacement. Encrypted chat at scale is hard, but this is a relatively new product and was built in an era where privacy concerns were well known. The benefits of encryption/privacy/security etc (and drawbacks from the lack of it) are clear.

I understand they need to be able to transmit the data, but they also clearly state that the developers of the product can look at your messages in cleartext. That's absolutely not required. How do you think Signal operates?

>Hacker News is publicly viewable without an account. Totally different.

What does that have to do with needing to acquire rights to redistribute your content?

>Discord tricks the user into using it as a private messaging platform.

Discord doesn't advertise security at all (they do mention keeping your IP secure in some support articles but that isn't advertising)

Beyond that, Discord exists to create big open public spaces. Why would you need encryption in a big open public space.

So if Y Combinator did not have those terms, I could put my own copyrighted work onto Hacker News and then sue Y Combinator? That doesn't sound right.

You probably wouldn't have a leg to stand on with that kind of lawsuit.

But when a company lets a lawyer write their TOS, they're gonna end up with a "better safe than sorry" version.

Those permissions are specifically granted "in connection with operating and providing the Service". I'm not a lawyer, but are you suggesting that they could do other things like steal your images to use in advertising and claim that it's "in connection with operating and providing the Service"?

In order to host your (automatically copyrighted) content on their server and display it to other people in your chats they need your permission, so you have to give it to them if you want to use Discord. Without it they would be infringing on your copyright by hosting your content on the service.

I'm not sure how else you expect it to work.

"Steal"? You gave them a license to do so.

Yes, they could use your images in their advertising, or publish a book of your images, or make a movie out of all your messages and videos, or anything else they wanted to do with, as they call it, "Your Content". That's what a perpetual, transferable, worldwide, royalty-free, sublicensable license to create derivative works is.

And no, all those rights are not required to operate Discord.

>you grant to us a perpetual, nonexclusive, transferable, royalty-free, sublicensable, and worldwide license to [snip] Your Content in connection with operating and providing the Service

So what you're saying is that when you grant someone the right to use your content for a specific purpose, you're actually granting them the right to do whatever the hell they want with it?

Again, not a lawyer, but "in connection with operating and providing the Service" reads like a legally important part of that sentence to me.

"Service" in this context is defined earlier in the document:

>the Discord application (the “App”) or the website located at https://discordapp.com (the "Site"), which are collectively referred to as the “Service,”

IMO you're reading this very creatively if you think that grants them a right to publish a book of your private messages. Rights to use your content are granted specifically "in connection with operating and providing the Service." A book of your messages is not in connection with operating/providing the Discord app or website.

Any service that does the things discord does and doesn't somehow obtain a license along those lines from their users is probably in trouble. Note that it is a non-exclusive license and only grants them the rights to do those things in connection with the providing the service.

99% of users don't care, it's a great product

I agree, but that's sad, and not the way things should be.

We should hold ourselves to a higher standard instead of blindly shuffling into the tar pits. Does that mean life is harder? Yes. But no one great ever took the easy way out.

There are alternatives, like Zulip

https://zulipchat.com/

No voice, how is that an alternative?

That's not in any way a replacement for discord.

What? Here is Zulip’s license which is almost identical:

When you upload or otherwise submit content to our Services, you give Kandra Labs (and those we work with) a worldwide license to use, host, store, reproduce, modify, create derivative works (such as those resulting from translations, adaptations or other changes we make so that your content works better with our Services), communicate, publish, perform, display and distribute such content.

The ridiculous pitchforking in this thread is out of control.

Most users of heroin dont care that it is harming them, but that's a good thing right?

Poor analogy. Just because they can't break the addiction, doesn't mean they don't care. A lot of long-time smokers are very aware that it harms them, and they wish they had never started, they just can't break the habit. Find me a sizeable group of discord users who are addicted to it and are using it because of the powerful habit they wish they could break, despite them being aware of how much it hurts them.

I honestly found it very refreshing how explicit and upfront they were about their data collection. There are plenty of "free" products that try hard to hide the fact that they are doing it too; this time I felt like I was actually engaging in a fair transaction.

For a lot of my less tech-savvy friends, it has been a blessing too. Discord is incredibly easy to set up, the audio adapts without tweaking, and new chatrooms are just a couple clicks away. Really my only other option was Skype and that is seemingly much worse.

> They also have a ban against distributing or even talking about macro/autohotkey programs, and, of course, they can see every single message and piece of content you put on the service.

Woah. That's strange considering I've subscribed to the AHK Discord group for a while now. Maybe they're referring to the ban in the context around cheating in video games.

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