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Comment by benatkin | Hacker News Reader

I'm guessing that Southwest didn't have these. They seem to get everything important right.

Edit: I was dead wrong. They had more 737 Max 8's than any other airline in the US.

Southwest has more 737max than anyone else. However they have outfitted it with an optional avionics package that includes a HUD, an additional AoA sensor and indicator in the HUD and PFD, and an "AoA disagree" indicator light. (https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/southwest-airlines...)

They also train their pilots using a 737max specific curriculum.

Hah, so I was right, in a way. They took the good without the bad. Except now these planes still grounded, so if they could have predicted this, perhaps they would have been smart not to buy them.

They were probably well into the process of purchasing the aircraft when they realized the extent of this issue, and might already have made financial arrangements that made them hesitate to back out. If this is a short grounding that is resolved by substantially the same measures as Southwest has already instituted, they'll look pretty smart. I wonder if airlines can buy insurance against losses due to problems with newly-purchased aircraft?

They may have not thought it inferior without the upgrades. If they had, I hope they tried to tell someone their concerns. We might find out.

That actually makes me feel simultaneously a lot better and worse that some party, especially Southwest, who in my personal travels has been my favorite airline, has been proactive with this.

But also kind of like "if a customer had some suspicions about some avionics weirdness or training, why aren't you as a responsible vendor understanding or addressing it holistically?"

That’s fascinating. It does seem to add a little credence that there may be a training problem with these planes, perhaps that Boeing facilitated this training “shortcut” when they shouldn’t have, and that the US / Euro carriers didn’t have the crashes because they go above and beyond with training anyway. All speculation at this point but I’m really interested to see where this ends up after the investigations are complete.

Why was a safety critical system (which was really only needed to place a bandied on retrofitting bigger motors on an older frame design) being sold as an "optional package". You need at least 3 redundant sensors in any safety critical system. This is just basic rocket science. Boeing and the FAA are negligent and should not be trusted.

« You need at least 3 redundant sensors in any safety critical system «

Huh? Says who?

Says everyone? Most avionics on modern commercial jets have triple redundancy.

Nope. Even if it were true in avionics (not my trade), not « any » safety system need triple redundancy to be safe (e.g. safety relays).

You need at least three in any system that can deliver conflicting data so that if one faults then the other two can 'out vote' the faulty one.

That allows the system to have at least one failure and still operate.

With just two sensors any fault is an unidentifiable failure - how does the system know which is correct when there are just two votes?

It may be there's a third input from some other sensort, but then technically we're back to at least 3 sensors voting on the issue.

This could be true in avionics where availability and safety are more or less the same. In other applications where there is a fail safe mode like nuclear (stop fission) or land transportation (hit the brakes), you do not need that. The statement « any » is too strong.

It's an AoA sensor. Planes flew without AoA sensors for 100 years; it's a useful sensor but not a critical sensor. Pilots and autopilots are perfectly capable of flying planes without it. If two AoA sensors disagree, you just stop making decisions based on the AoA sensor and fly the plane without it.

The crux of the problem is that the NG/MAX isn't certified to fly with malfunctioning alpha vanes. On the NG and MAX the effort required to move the control column varies based on the angle-of-attack (a.k.a. elevator feel system). On the MAX the airspeed calculation is influenced by the AoA and MCAS is triggered by data from a single alpha vane with no sanity checking.

Functioning alpha vanes are critical on the MAX and NG.

That's the huge design flaw. They should have made the AoA sensors either critical and triply redundant, or not critical at all (as is typical).

With one sensor you have no choice but to simply trust the reading and hope for the best.

With two sensors you can compare, and if they disagree beyond some epsilon of tolerance you can fail safe by deactivating the system.

With three sensors, you can compare them, and if one is out of bounds vs the other two, you can fail operational by continuing to operate the system while also alerting the operator to the needed maintenance.

Yes, and so you do not need three sensors to have a safe system in certain applications. It is sufficient to fail safe.

Even think about distributed systems like databases. You absolutely should not call 2 db servers that are configured in a cluster as "redundant" You introduce things like split brain and broken quorum voting (not even possible without a third node) in the event a network connection is severed between them.

You can use 2 dbs if you apply the STONITH principle (Shoot The Other Node In The Head). Typically, when one node decides to be master, it can switch off with certainty the other one. Routinely used in HA (Highly Available) industrial applications.

In fact, Southwest had very little choice purchasing new planes: their entire fleet are 737s (of various versions) so that they can lower personnel training & maintaining costs, which is part of the reason their prices are typically lower. So if they were to expand their fleet while still trying to minimize the cost they had basically no choice but to keep buying new 737s.

I don't blame Southwest though, after all the FAA and Boeing gave the green light for these jets. It would be interesting to see where Southwest is going if 737 Max is discontinued after this.

Note there are two sides to both coins: Southwest won't have such a good negotiating position with Boeing when it comes to ordering new aircraft, as they're much less likely to go to Airbus and buy A320 family aircraft (and even if Airbus offered a good deal, the logistical costs of moving to a more varied fleet add costs on top of that, and Boeing only needs to compete with the sum of the two).

SWA supposedly opted for an upgrade that would warn of the erroneous readings

If you believe the narrative about erroneous readings, this makes a difference.

Nothing concrete about the latest crash, could be 100% software related.

I hope there's more to that upgrade story. I mean, micro-transactions are popular in video games but an optional feature that gives you +1 life in real life is almost unthinkable to put behind an additional paywall.

Good analogy. Seat belts were an extra cost "feature" when they first came out.

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