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Comment by CedarMills | Hacker News Reader

Getting to test drive all three current models, I can say that the actual test drive was what convinced me to start looking at purchasing a Tesla and making compromises/adjustments in my life (charging stations, range, etc). No amount of marketing can give you the thrill that you get when you slam the accelerator.

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Interesting. Test driving one is what killed all the hype for me. It was definitely fast but it just drives wierd and I found the interior feels cheap compared to similarly priced cars. Still, definitely more interesting than any of the other mainstream electric cars out there currently.

Yep, going to a showroom convinced me that a Volt was a good decision. I think they're both great cars, but I actually prefer Android Auto and the fit and finish of the Volt. That said I'd probably buy a Model 3 today since the part supply chain of the Volt will probably be drying up in the next decade (it's been discontinued).

At this point I think it may be a serious question of how long the Tesla part supply stays around.

Between uncertainty of the company’s future and just not knowing how well they support cars long term it could be an issue.

Yeah, driving a Tesla feels like driving a go-cart to me. I like to feel the rumble of the engine. Maybe it’s just because that’s what I grew up with.

Yeah, driving a Model T feels like riding a train to me. I like to feel the hoofbeats of the horses. Maybe it's just because that's what I grew up with.

Haha, I’d probably enjoy galloping on a horse better than driving a Model T, as well.

Also, congratulations on your 130th birthday ;-)

I grew up with mustangs then corvettes, competitive amateur auto racing.

A Tesla P90D made of all those gasoline cars I used to have feel stupid. I can only imagine what insanity awaits us when electric drivetrains with that power are in actual sports cars rather than large sedans..

unnfffff

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(2020)

For the first 20, maybe 30 minutes of driving.

I expected to feel that way when I got my Tesla, but it's turned out to be the opposite. I switch back and forth between a Model S and an Audi TTS, and whenever I get in the Audi, the engine rumble feels primitive, like a spinning hard disk instead of an SSD.

I would agree with both. When I test drove one a) I realized the acceleration was otheworldly compared to my Prius b) Autopilot was good but not amazing c) I still wanted one badly (and still do - until recently I couldn't justify the cost esp. insuring it, will get one after my current lease ends).

I went to the model 3 AWD performance test drive day at their HQ, and walked away knowing I wouldn't buy one. The entire driving experience to me just felt so floaty, with essentially zero road feel. Im sure my mom would love it, but it's the antithesis of what i'm looking for.

You can pry my all mechanically/hydraulically linked pseudo racecar from my cold dead hands.

> No amount of marketing can give you the thrill that you get when you slam the accelerator.

And this is something that is unique to EVs. Sure, a Porsche will have a very high max speed. But even it can't beat an eletric motor in acceleration.

Instant torque at any speed, not having to "rev up" and no gears are a massive benefit of having such simple drive trains.

I think other companies should take notice, and start offering higher performance EVs. Specially since the battery is the main cost driver, and electric engines are tiny. Add more power a 'premium' option.

It's not just about the environment, there are some measurable benefits of EVs for car enthusiasts.

One of the largest challenges with high performance EVs is cooling and weight. Both of these affect performance.

A Lotus Exige 380 Cup, with the 2GR-FE 3.5 supercharged V6 from the Toyota Camry weights just 1105KG, of which 163KG is the engine, excluding the supercharger. The 85KWh cells in the Model S weighs 540KG in comparison and is almost 50% of the Exige's total weight.

I'm not sure how far off we are from solving this but I'm quite looking forward to improved cooling and lightweight cells that will make electric viable for ultra high performance sports cars.

on the bright side, that weight penalty can be located very very low. That doesn't help with acceleration but improves braking and cornering performance.

This is a common misconception. Mass is still mass, no matter how optimally it is placed in the chassis.

A Lotus Exige already has near perfect weight distribution and low center of gravity. Since it is mid-engined it also has 160KG of engine over the rear axle which improves traction.

Adding an extra 500KG and putting it lower in the vehicle will not improve braking performance, handling or agility.

I've wondered about something similar.

The original roadster was based on the elise (similar to exige), and it was heavier.

I think the highest performance models now have the largest batteries mostly due to marketing. basically "If you want the performance, pay for more battery than you need".

Why not have a 35kwh car, a supercapacitor as a buffer and have it weigh significantly less for better performance? (at the expense of range)

It would be a pain. Take that 35KWh car on track, do a 15 minute session and then have to wait another 45-60 minutes for it to charge back up?

If you're talking about the track, then swappable batteries?

Also, I wonder how a supercapacitor could increase range? I suspect performance and efficiency would both increase without energy bottlenecks between the motors and the batteries.

> Sure, a Porsche will have a very high max speed. But even it can't beat an eletric motor in acceleration.

Unless, of course, it's a Porsche Taycan:

https://www.engadget.com/2019/03/09/porche-taycan-ev-20-000-...

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/products/porsche-taycan-miss...

> I think other companies should take notice, and start offering higher performance EVs

I'm a Tesla fanboy and I agree with this wholeheartedly.

A lot of my fanboyism is based on the fact that Tesla is the ONLY company making performance EVs. The SLOWEST Tesla is still quicker than the fastest Leaf, Bolt, i3, or any other EV besides the i8, which doesn't count because it's a plug-in hybrid with only 15 miles of electric range.

I'm greatly considering a Model 3 Performance at the end of this year, but if another company announces an EV that will do 0-60 in under 3.5 seconds (EDIT: for under $75K) before then, I'd be willing to put off buying an EV to give someone else a chance.

Jaguar I-Pace has 0-60 in 4.6 seconds, don't think that's slower than all Teslas, is it?

Somehow I didn't know of the I-Pace. Between the I-Pace and a Model 3 Performance though, I'd probably go for the Tesla. $10k less, faster, quicker, and longer range.

The I-Pace competitor would be the model X.

It also starts at double the listed price of the Model 3.

I'd rather have an I-pace.

The I-Pace doesn't look that big in pictures, while a Model X is a rather large SUV. I-Pace looks like it's a hair smaller than a Honda CR-V.

I'm a bigger fan of smaller cars. Even a Model 3 would feel big to me, since I currently drive a Subaru BRZ (Which is the same car as the Scion FR-S and Toyota GT86).

The model X does not look big when standing next to one. The first time I have seen one on the road, I was actually really surprised how small it was.

I've got a Mustang and I'd like something mch smaller.

> A lot of my fanboyism is based on the fact that Tesla is the ONLY company making performance EVs.

This is one of the reasons for my lack of enthusiasm about Tesla/electric vehicles. I don't especially care about acceleration performance - I'm perfectly happy with my $10k econobox that gets >700km per tank and handles pretty nicely.

I believe a software update lowered that to 3.3 seconds (in track mode).

The plug-in hybrid Porsche 918 can go 0-60 MPH in 2.2 seconds. I'm pretty sure that demolishes the fastest Tesla models.

the fastest recorded time iirc of the 918 was done by car and driver, at 2.1 seconds 0-60[i was wrong, it was 2.2 seconds]. tesla model S p100D with "ludicrous mode" have been recorded at ~2.2 seconds (fastest i could find was 2.28 seconds from moter trend). the 918 is the fastest recorded production car, and of course a difference of .1-.18 seconds is a bigger deal at ~2 seconds.

car and driver is notorious for "dumping the clutch" on a lot of their tests. with the 918's dct, that likely means an automated launch control, though they still have come under fire for pushing the cars to their limit on their 0-60 tests, possibly damaging components in the process. Launch control can be quite hard on performance cars, some even have a lifetime counter on how many times it can be done. in order to enter ludicrous mode in the tesla, you have to agree that you understand it may damage components of the car as well.

both cars have instant torque from electric motors, and AWD. the largest limiting factor keeping us from faster 0-60 times is definitely tire technology, most of these cars run on tires with very similar compounds, usually from Michelin or Pirelli. also, at 0-60 in ~3 seconds, it works out to about 1G, which makes me wonder how much people want to accelerate that quickly, or if they just want to be able to talk about the times on their new car.

Tesla Model S with Ludicrous+: 2.28 seconds. Not quite matching it, but the Porsche is not "demolishing" it either. And the Telsa will carry you and four of your friends, and costs 1/5 as much as the Porsche (which isn't even for sale any more). https://electrek.co/2017/02/07/tesla-model-s-p100d-ludicrous...

Absolutely.

I've driven my Tesla Model S 28,000mi in 14 countries and I'd never go back to a petrol car. 250-350mi range. 'Tank' full every morning. Supercharger, destination chargers and plugs in garages everywhere. Free parking in my London borough, no road tax, no congestion charge.

Does 60mph in 2.8sec, absolutely toasting everything at the lights with no nonsense noise byproduct or fuss.

The Hacker News crowd might be interested in how I charge whilst not having off-street parking, in central London. They converted all the street lights to LEDs, meaning there is excess electricity delivered. So they put plugs on the posts. Works brilliantly.

https://imgur.com/a/I5AtwJk https://www.ubitricity.com/

That is interesting. How is your usage metered so they know how much to charge you?

The box on the proprietary cable reports back via a mobile phone network, and I get a bill each month.

how much do you think it costs to "fill" your Tesla via this provider?

I pay 0.12GBP per kWh on that cable. Car has a 90kWh battery, so £10.80 fills from 0 to 100. I get 250-350mi from that.

This is very cool but would get stolen and chopped for copper in US cities. I'd seriously give this 15 minutes before being stolen in SF.

The yellow part & green box is carried by the driver, typically. The city's end of the deal is just a socket on a lamp post.

That picture is from where I live, Brixton in London - not exactly a low crime area.

Cable is locked at both ends. I've never tried it, but strikes me you'd have to be particularly stupid to put a cutting implement through a live electricity line.

People do it all the time...

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=live+power+lines+cut+to+steal+copp...

Your explanation doesn't make sense to me. How many watts does a non-LED light consume vs charging an EV? A good sized light is probably less than 500 watts. To charge an EV you need thousands of watts. The street lights must have been wired with a massively over-designed electrical conductor (and upstream infrastructure) or there would be no way to charge EVs in any kind of density. Based on the power draw of EVs, I don't see how it can work without putting in new cabling.

You can charge an EV with 1kW (i.e. 110V x 10A) - that's how I charge my Tesla daily.

Given that this is in the UK, they probably have 220V and 13A delivered to each outlet - that's 2.8kW.

This. I get more than enough juice out of an Ubitricity socket for an overnight charge.

Here is a screenshot of the Tesla app showing the car charging on an Ubitricity plug.... https://imgur.com/a/TykEMSa

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaEhBjt1ls, from Fully Charged. Video features a council official (who own the lights) and Ubitricity CEO.

I would assume several traffic lights compose a string, and not every traffic light has an EV.

> No amount of marketing can give you the thrill that you get when you slam the accelerator.

Have you driven another high-performance car such as a Porsche Turbo or GTS? They have similar acceleration times as the best Tesla.

Key word being 'similar'. The engine can be even more powerful, but there's still 'lag'.

Also, we are comparing a sedan, with plenty of space for passengers and cargo, with a dedicated sports car.

It depends on the motor and what is determined as "lag". The 4.0 motor in the 991 GT3 and GT3 RS does not have lag, the throttle response is immediate.

The 991 GT3 is $140k?

Yes. It is cheaper than the Model S P100D in the U.K.

991 GT3: £111,802 (https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911-gt3/19269/new-2017-porsche...)

P100D: £129,400 (https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/model-s/98337/tesla-mode...)

It's not so much 'lag' that people notice as much as the torque roll on. Even a supercar doesn't deliver 100% torque the second you hit the throttle, the RPM has to build to increase the torque, hence the reason torque and HP are on a curve. Electric on the other hand has ALL the torque available ALL the time. Generally they actually have to limit it for takeoff otherwise every Tesla would just roast the tires if you slammed the throttle.

What we're now describing is more or less the power and torque curve as you rightly mentioned. My worry here is that we're kind of categorizing all internal combustion engines as having the same kind of power/torque curves when in fact a lot of internal combustion engines are very different from each other.

Some engines are capable of delivering 100% of torque the second (within a couple 100ms) of hitting the throttle. To name a couple:

1. The Mercedes M278 twin-turbo V8 makes 700NM of torque between 1,800 and 3,500RPM. In other words, 700NM of torque is available from little above idle.

2. BMW B58 single-scroll turbo i6 makes 500NM between 1,600 and 4,500RPM.

Other turbo charged engines, such as those in supercars, have different kind of turbos turned for a more linear torque and power curve to better replicate their N/A predecessors, such as the McLaren M838TE which makes 620NM between 5,500 and 6,500RPM.

Lots of different engines out there with all kinds of different characteristics and power/torque curves.

You're definitely right, it is getting to the point of semantics when it comes to comparing the high end of internal combustion to electric. I mean, even very old diesels could hit their peak torque in the 100s of rpms. Even still though, a couple 100ms to full torque is still more than literally instantaneous torque with electric. That also applies to the 'low end' electric cars as well. They're really good at getting your head to snap back into your seat, but once you're moving the benefits really drop off a cliff. Just like the torque and hp 'curve'(cliff) of an electric car actually.

a turbo engine takes some amount of time to spool up the turbos and produce the full torque. sometimes that time is very small, but it is there.

As a practical matter, the most powerful Porsches and Teslas are both going to be hitting the traction control pretty constantly during hard acceleration from a stop. Their performance changes on racing slicks, I'm sure. A gt2 RS on racing slicks recently did less than ten seconds for the quarter mile with some minimal modifications at a drag strip. (Which is a crazy use for that car, but still)

It's a measure of how amazing the Tesla's performance is that you need something with race car-like specs to compete. On the other hand, that only holds true for about the first quarter mile. It's not going to keep pulling hard until 200mph. The roadster will, perhaps, someday.

For acceleration.

That's 1 part of driving, it's just the part Tesla chosen to highlight because it's where electric cars have an advantage.

They are also heavier and tend to overheat if pushed.

Even in a 1/4 mile the Tesla is somewhere in the 10-11 second range. That's insanely fast, but it's not reaching the levels of purpose built drag racers or even some production cars.

> That's 1 part of driving, it's just the part Tesla chosen to highlight because it's where electric cars have an advantage.

It's also the part everyone driving on a public road notices and appreciates. There's a reason zero to sixty and quarter mile numbers have always been so widely quoted.

This is well known in car sales in general: "The feel of the wheel seals the deal".

Seems like the right moment in time to legislate a maximum acceleration for street legal cars.

Why does the acceleration matter if we already regulate velocity?

Acceleration clearly impacts interactions between drivers.

If I see a car stationary at a junction, I can assume that 0.5 seconds from now, it will either still be stationary, be a little further forward or a little further back.

The range of possible positions is significantly reduced with an acceleration limit.

By the same logic minimum stopping distance should also be regulated.

Arguably this is a good idea. If all cars had a precise 'maximum braking', then if everyone slammed the brakes on at the same time, nobody would crash.

If some cars stop better than others, then if everyone slams the brakes on, the poor souls in cars that don't stop as well will collide.

Keeping a safe distance between cars mitigates this though.

Interesting concept.

I suspect you'd have a lot of the car industry against your campaign though...

It’s already regulated as reckless driving. If you burn rubber starting from a stoplight a cop will probably write you a ticket for it.

A Model S, and most other 500HP+ all wheel drive cars with launch control don't burn rubber. The launch control and ESP are programmed to limit wheel spin as much as possible as loss of traction is not useful for maximum acceleration.

There are a couple of good videos of Model S doing launch control on YouTube: https://youtu.be/8I-6_H0haAw?t=248

A Model S, and most other 500HP+ all wheel drive cars with launch control don't burn rubber.

If one can afford a Model S, one can afford a lawyer to ask the judge for the court's accepted definition for "display of speed". My money says a Tesla with pedal mashed and launch control on would not fit the definition. All one is left with is pulling an illegal number of Gs, which I don't think cops have a measuring gun for yet.

In the real world, I've launched plenty hard on motorcycles on a regular basis to this day, and have occasionally blown past a sitting cop while doing it (getting around traffic from a light, or what have you). No smoke from the rear tire, front wheel stayed on the ground, speed not exceeded (or not by much), I've never been pulled over. Squeal tires, or have another car next to you accelerating at the same rate, or maybe even an overly loud exhaust, and now you've got problems.

Legislation already on the books covering "display of speed" (intentional wheel-spinning, name varies by jurisdiction) and posted speed limits should already address your concern, don't they?

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