Hacker News Reader

Comment by maaaats | Hacker News Reader

> I have a place that's very dear to me that is similarly being eroded by a crush of visitors.

But why is you visiting it okay, but others not? It's like being stuck in traffic and hating on other drivers. In the article's case, it's their homes, so I can see it being annoying. But for landmarks that get popular, I don't see how one is justified in hating on other people going there. It's just a tragedy of the commons.

I also dislike how Barcelona and others are handling the problem. Taking tourists' money and harassing them.

I say this as someone who grew up in a mountain resort. Yes, it is annoying during winter when people flood to "my nature" and "my ski spots". But if it weren't for those people, my family or no one else would live there as there wouldn't be any jobs. So then it wouldn't be "mine" anyways.

View on HN

You’re right, of course. I grew up nearby and spent many summers there as a kid, that’s why I have some connection. But the place is not mine.

The reason I brought it up in the first place is because only within the last 10 years has it really gotten “bad” — completely because of instagram.

I don't think you can blame instagram. These problems are happening all over the world, and I doubt that many of the tourists actually use instagram.

I suspect cheap flights and accommodation, changes in fashion (city breaks vs package holidays), more disposable income and free time are all contributing.

Yes, this has been happening the last 100 years or so, to different locations over the world. There is always something that gets noticed on TV or whatever channel exists att he time. And then some entrepreneur uses the hype to make trips with tourists to this location.

Just an example: https://www.slice.ca/travel/photos/most-popular-travel-spots...

Yes, this has been happening the last 100 years or so

A lot longer than that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour

A lot longer than that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilgrimage

And a lot longer than that: http://ieg-ego.eu/en/threads/europe-on-the-road/the-history-...

I think any solution needs to be better than “ it was okay when only rich people could do it, but became a problem when poorer people could do it too”

You're making it a class problem when nobody here has mentioned class.

Cheap flights and accommodations were mentioned.

Flying is an unusual product that gets cheaper over time. Supply has increased.

Airbnb has had an impact on hotel pricing and availability.

Almost every product gets cheaper over time.

Inflation says otherwise.

Inflation does not change the real cost of goods and services, only the nominal cost.

And the costs of flying and accommodation have actually gone down in real terms.

That's not true outside of theoretical context, much like the concept of efficient markets. In reality, inflation does change the relative real costs due to the mechanism by which inflationary monetary policy is implemented: debt. Products that rely heavily on debt (construction, airlines, etc.) will be affected by inflation differently from products that use little of it (technology, fashion, food service, etc.)

That's an interesting, but unusual perspective.

It's commonly understood that not all prices change in lock step, but "inflation" is the general or aggregate change in prices, usually based on the change in the purchasing power of money. Choosing to finance or pay cash for a car or a house doesn't change the price of the item, just your cost of acquiring it - it exposes you to expected future inflation, in addition to the current price, because you will be paying back the incurred debt with less-valuable future dollars. The interest you pay also pays for the use of someone else's money for the period of the debt.

Note, too, that inflationary monetary policy is also implemented by creating money in other ways, like a printing press, and inflation can also be caused by supply/demand shocks, like changes in supply/demand of fundamental commodities, like oil.

I just don't think this is true. I mean, I see your point, but it just doesn't seem to be that significant in practice. Possibly because the interest you get at a bank has inflation priced in. In reality, more or less everything is getting cheaper in real terms. There are some exceptions, like housing (urban land), and services (people's time) but these are exceptions.

They were describing an alternate explanation of the cause of the problem, not a solution. And yes, an activity can go from being not a problem to a problem when poor people start do it because there are a lot more poor people than rich people. 1000 people doing something will cause a lot more wear and tear than 10 people. Also, with greater numbers, there's a greater chance of one of them being a thoughtless jerk who causes harm.

Blaming a website (I don't use Instagram and I am not a fan of it) for people's generally shitty behavior is stretching it, don't you think? It is absolutely possible to travel respectfully (one can't avoid the plane ride, other than that, sure) - respecting the local people, landmarks, wildlife etc. But many travelers lack this basic decency and common sense - even if Instagram died today, these people would continue to behave the same.

Instagram is in some sense just a label for the greater phenomenon.

you're on to something, but are missing an important part of the equation

instagram influencing is now a business. it's advertising without the clear disclaimers or statements for who is paying for that advertising and why

a lot of this advertising requires traveling to cool/famous/chic/rugged locations and taking photos or videos there, so that followers feel they are also there, and get to see a cool place through the eyes of their "friends"

it's more than just social points gamification, it's a business, it's advertising with real money involved, and these natural settings are becoming the new ad studios that it's cool to shoot in (besides places like venice beach and rue cremieux)

and when businesses/money get involved, the natural respect for the environment/others using the space disintegrates in the face of profit and time maximization

I'm from Barcelona, I don't see how anybody is harassing the tourists or how the city is taking their money (touristic fees/tax exist in most of the cities). If you are annoyed for some words on a wall... well, then you should learn a bit about gentrification and understand why are they there.

I visit Barcelona quite often for work, but do try and visit the local area while I'm there and do 'touristy' things. I've had, on three separate occasions, groups of men harass and shout profanities at me, telling me to f- off back home, or calling me a filthy tourist; once going as far to follow me around jeering while I was taking photos, trying to intimidate me and forcing me back into the more populated areas.

I'm not surprised you don't see how anybody is harassing tourists; you're a local so you don't get harassed. That's doesn't mean it's not an issue.

I'm used to be with tourists here and most of my friends here are from other countries and we are all the time speaking in English and doing these "touristy things". It never happened to me or my friends. Can I ask where did that happen?

What should I learn about gentrification to understand "TOURISTS FUCK OFF"?

That those airbnb many people get are kicking out the families off their neighborhoods, that tourists are being the priority instead of the citizens, that that type of economy is just erasing local businesses -created for daily life and not for a weekend holidays-, that it's degrading the quality of life of those who live there... Las Ramblas were once a place for the people of the city. Most of young people now can't name a single spot there that is useful there for someone who lives in Barcelona. I could continue but if you try to look at the future seeing what happened in the last 10-15 years, you can see Barcelona turning into a theme park instead of a city. Being controlled by external economy does no good to anybody anywhere, and that's why you can read "tourists fuck off" in some walls. If you travel you should be aware of the type of tourism you're going to practice and the consequences for the area you're visiting.

Locals should be attacking the landowners sucking money out of the economy, not the visitors pumping money into it.

They do too. Is not as simple as having money or not, the social fabric is the base of healthy neighborhoods and tourism is really invasive against that matter. I said a bunch of reasons there. The visitors should be aware of that. Why would we want to have more money if we don't have a place to live that we can call home? Or if those who are "pumping money" are making our life's more expensive while our salaries remain the same? I don't think you are addressing the problem from the vision of someone suffering the gentrification.

I've experienced the same experiences as those mentioned above in Barcelona. You clearly agree with those terrorizing tourists out of some misguided blame.

The reality is that the rich Spanish sold the rest of you out for a quick buck. That's why there aren't any good jobs and any reason to stay. Those that stay whine and complain. Yet every Spaniard I've talked to in northern Europe talks openly about the whining and the lack of desire to get to the root of the problem or take responsibility.

I have a good job and most of my friends do now, the weather is nice, my family is here... There are many reasons to stay in my situation. In my opinion going to northern Europe sounds way more like avoiding the problem rather than taking any responsibility.

just as a semi related matter of curiosity, what is the local's perception of skateboarders there? is it a source of annoyance to live in a skate-mecca or are people basically ok with it?

I personally love skate and I haven't seen many people protesting against it. Skateboarders use to be pretty nice, they move around in some areas that are used to them -or even prepared for them-, and also there are some other problems related to transport as the new scooters, the public spaces for bicycles, taxi vs uber, etc... that I feel more people are concerned about right now. It probably used to be a bigger thing, when the big crews of skaters started to come 10 years ago, but I never saw a neighborhood trying to kick them off! (which doesn't means that it never happened) What I saw it happened was the opposite, like in Nou Barris where the neighborhood maintained a DIY skatepark -that now is amazing, finally paid by the city hall- for 20 years and made it a symbol of social protest/resistance.

Many people don't have the privilege to travel at all, so there should be some benefits for locals.

Pedantic, but travelling is not a privilege (assuming, of course, that we're talking about most people from most countries). Some people don't have the resources to travel, but they are not otherwise prohibited from doing so.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com