Everyone is spying on eachother and we are not safe from that, despite what is said. I’m more afraid of the NSA having far reaching powers to spy on their own citizens than I am of China hacking into the NSA
> imprisoned, tortured, or killed on the basis of your religious or political beliefs
You've entirely failed to refute the parent comment.
Surveillance of Muslims vs. China kidnapping Uyghurs and putting them in re-education camps? Are you even seriously comparing the two countries here?
(a) Social credit system which centres around facial recognition of the entire population ?
(b) Reeducation camps where tens of millions of Muslims, Uyghurs, dissidents, journalists etc are sent to based on surveillance of their online activity ?
(c) Free reign to do whatever they want unfettered by any judicial or political oversight mechanisms ?
(d) Companies and the government stealing intellectual property on an industrial scale ?
The answer to all of those is no. US is a democracy with checks and balances provided by Congress, Journalists and the Courts. China has none of these.
From the outside, USA with its more noticably overbearing propaganda or China with its disregard for US set morality don't seem that hugely different. These moral arguments from US side are laughable for anyone who was sitting on the other side of diplomatic table.
Lesson here is that we (as in europeans) need to get rid of dependency on both of those nations for core services.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45474279
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...
But if your choice is between being spied on by the US or by China, why would you prefer China?
And I mean, we even do have European businesses in that sector but it seems we're not even trying.. Unfortunately.
No, it isn't.
> It's like saying a government backed army and a guy with a gun are the same because they can both shoot people.
This however qualifies for that title, since you're probably underestimating China if you're comparing them with a single person with a gun.
> This however qualifies for that title, since you're probably underestimating China if you're comparing them with a single person with a gun.
You totally missed the analogy. Here, China/US are the armies, and Huawei/Cisco are just some folks with guns. When governments intervene, they bring an enormous amount of resources that even large companies cannot compete with.
That's what they claim and given the repercussions, both legally and commercially, for admitting to willingly giving the NSA all the access they want or deliberately planting backdoors, it's not all that hard to see why they'd be lying about this. Saying that it was without their help or consent is the only sensible choice they had / have.
> In contrast, it is largely understood that Huawei freely assists and cooperates with the Chinese government.
The only "proof" of that are statements from the US government. The very organization with a decades long track record of global mass surveillance, among other things.
Doesn't really take a leap of imagination that this is more about holding back a successful Chinese company in favor of something more "controllable" than it is about Huawei being an actual security risk. After all, we have a new Cisco backdoor like what, every other week? Whereas proof for those alleged Huawei backdoors has yet to materialize and that is with GCHQ having inspected Huawei's equipment and source code for more than 8 years now.
If you ask me, this just boils down to anti-China propaganda from the US. Which doesn't mean that we should simply trust Huawei, but in the absence of any compelling evidence we Europeans are better off policing them - the GSMA for example wants a Europe-wide equipment-testing organization for suppliers like Huawei - rather than banning them outright.
My only argument here would be that choosing China means we're choosing equipment where everyone involved knows that due diligence must be made to keep spying out and communication channels secured. I feel like this is not done enough when using US equipment and has exposed us to too much risk, considering the increasing hostility of current US government and its also increasing push to leverage spying to attack our companies.
You can argue many other avenues (like having better quality of life if we stay aligned with US vs. China), but doing moral handwringing about Huawei after Snowden's leaks and failings of current US government is a bit hypocritical.
23m Chinese have been banned from buying plane or train tickets based on their social score. Show me anything in the US that is remotely equivalent.
Show me a re-education camp in the US where tens of millions are being detained. Is Guantanomo Bay even remotely the same ?
Try to rent apartment without or with low credit score...
It seems that some European countries are already reacting to this needless hostility by slowly realigning themselves to China: https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/10/04/chinese-invest...
We're in for some interesting times.
UK!=US
>Guantanamo Bay with prisoners without due process and oversight,
It's been a lot more documented than people who "disappear".
> police killing black people without punishment and military industrial complex lobbying established government all exist.
This is an issue that our officials refuse to address.
The US is not some shining beacon of justice and fairness, it's just as corrupt and capricious as all the rest.
Relying on a few references - precisely because it's not common - in a country of 330 million, does not support your claim. The reason cases of denied legal process get so much attention in the US, is because they're rare. The reason a million detained Muslims in China isn't causing an uproar in the Muslim world, is because they know China has no protections for human rights and it does no good to protest. Contrast that with the protests regarding Abu Ghraib. Why was that an massive, international embarrassment for the US, if it's just the same as China?
> it's just as corrupt and capricious as all the rest
Saying it, does not make it so. The fact that that is incorrect, is precisely why so many people - of such diverse backgrounds - want to immigrate to the US and have for the past century. Much of Latin America would immediately immigrate if given the option, because of how corrupt the majority of Latin America is (see: how low Latin American nations rank [1]).
The US routinely ranks high among nations on the quality of its justice system, the independence of its judicial system and its protection of property rights. That has been true for a very long time.
Transparency International ranks China #88 on corruption and Russia #138, to name two prominent examples.
Denmark is ranked #1 for lowest corruption, New Zealand is #2. The US ranks comparable to France and Japan. So your premise is there's no difference between the US, Denmark, New Zealand, France, Japan, China and Russia - since everyone is just as corrupt and capcricious as all the rest.
Of course that's not true. The US is a liberal democracy with vast protections for human rights. China and Russia, as contrasts, are regressive dictatorships with few protections for human rights.
Anyway, the US has more systemic problems in how it affords legal process to the accused. The widespread racism that still permeates the country's institutions. The misuse of plea bargaining, which seems almost designed to deny proper legal process to the accused, unless they're wealthy enough to challenge it. Even in sentencing, the US still uses the death penalty, something that most other countries, especially highly-developed countries, have abolished.
On the topic of US corruption, it will be interesting to see the outcome of the Mueller investigation. I suspect most of those at the top will get away with it with scant repercussion. At least, that's what usually happens.
Us has a lot of flaws, and the justice system (for less affluent people) is a shame but it is uncomparable to a totalitarian regime.
Lots of propaganda materials or internet trolls, or paid keyboard warrior tends to name Huawei being the No. 1 in 5G patents, (which is not true) bringing the most innovation and doing majority of the 5G standard works ( Which is again not true ). And they will attack or threaten you for saying it is not so.
Huawei have the best implementation, one reason because they have much more resources and has a very diverse testing scenario. Just as the letter noted, they have system in Artic Circles and to Sahara, their equipment are well tested in these Edge Cases, and they have 900M Smartphone population in China to test again the most crowned situation, and in places like Hong Kong where not only do you have the highest mobile density within given radius, there are huge amount of concrete building making it extremely difficult for wireless reception.
And another major point, their competitor sucks. Ericsson and Nokia, whatever is in their management's mind I have no idea. But thanks to competition from Huawei it was a wake up call for them and they are finally not sitting on their bottom and doing nothing. Ericsson manage to shake things up a little should be in a slightly better shape. Nokia, whatever happened to them during the M$ / Nokia era, and they were never the same again. Samsung, which for some reason hasn't been in media spot light, are working hard and I expect them to fill the gap. The only problem is Telco Equipment tends to have an extremely long lead time, Samsung might be too little too late.
The problem isn't with technology, it is many of the western MNO have Huawei equipment in one form or another for their 4G, and some of these hardware are 5G ready meaning they are upgradable to 5G via software update. Switching out Huawei now means they will have to redeploy all those infrastructure that are already in place. And it is labour intensive as well as time consuming. Which is why many MNO are frustrated.
I wouldn't disagree that Huawei are ahead right in terms of products available right now, the other two are behind but there will be a competitive market.
I have no idea why Samsung even get a mention. That confused me.
Disclaimer: I work for Nokia (but not in mobile networks, or whatever they call that division these days).
I assume there is a missing word built their network soley on them. Vodafone, Three, are two big Operators that has some Huawei deployed in EU. It is rare that any Operator relies on one single Telecom Equipment Vendor. Even China Mobile have both Nokia and Ericsson, as it was part of the deal between EU and China.
>No serious operator is doing a software upgrade for this.
They were deployed as part of the Capacity expansion in 4G LTE Massive MIMO. This is strictly Sub 6Ghz, all those mmWave are totally different thing. May be deployed isn't the "correct" word. Widely tested, especially in places where an Operator uses TDD spectrum.
>I have no idea why Samsung even get a mention. That confused me.
Samsung is a relatively new comer to telecom equipment. New in terms of Public knowledge, they were doing it during LTE era but never seems to get anywhere internationally. They are even smaller than ZTE, which is one reason you don't seen any TE market share dictate any special note on them. But they have been active on 5G ever since the possibility of Huawei Contract replacement. I have no information on how they perform in real life though. And I have yet to see any Operators had testing notes using Samsung's Equipment. But knowing how competitive they are, I was hoping they would do well.
But of the two things you list, it probably depends on whether it is wartime or peacetime. In peacetime, better to be spied on by foreign governments and in wartime better not to be.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/detention-of-an-australian...
Sorry but I will always prefer the US where at least there is a functioning judicial system.
One reason why Tencent investment on Reddit became such as issue.
China is playing a really good geopolitical strategy game. If any other country was doing the same attrocities as them, they would be criticized and sanctioned. But China has gained enough power to stop that from happening.
Fixed that for you.