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Comment by BoorishBears | Hacker News Reader

I think they both deserve credit, in reality returning a 30 thousand dollar object is never going to be smooth.

The finance has already written you a check, they’ve already done all this leg work.

You’ve already driven it, if you’re purchasing it in earnest you might have already invested in charging infrastructure for your home, a whole laundry list of friction.

Then there’s what happens to the car you returned.

I wouldn’t want to be the guy stuck with a car that went through multiple 1000 mile “test drives” with Tesla’s reconditioning track record of delivering cars with toe nail clippings in the seat rails

(traditional dealers do have offers like this from time to time, but it’s exceedingly rare they’ll actually let you keep the car for more than a few hours, and most importantly they don’t require you to buy the car first, they’ll take a deposit or let you rent the car)

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>The finance has already written you a check, they’ve already done all this leg work.

Oh boo hoo. Finance does a little more work.

I feel for the people doing the refurbishing, sure. They're probably squeezed to death non-union wage labor.

But the Pinstripes in finance? The likelihood the work they do for your loan involves "legs" at all is nil.

That’s kind of rude to people who didn’t earn it.

I spent hours on the phone talking to these people when they realized my closed loan was still affecting my ability to get a car and they went up and down trying to get someone to fix it.

Maybe they were just typing in numbers into a computer and hitting transfer but they’re still people doing a job.

I wouldn’t feel to good taking someone’s information, going over the process with them then having them call back in a week to tell me never mind we have to do it all over again.

They probably just reset the miles to zero. No one would know.

That is illegal.

https://www.dmv.org/vehicle-history/odometer-fraud.php

Chrysler got burned on this way back. “The pride is back and so is the odometer.”

Once you drive it, you are not going to want to return it, so all this is moot for most people.

I tested one years ago (not the model 3) and hated it. There are plenty of people who don't want to own a Tesla even when cost isn't a factor.

Why would those people buy one though? The parent's comment was that people who purchase the car are unlikely to want to return it after driving it.

They were not saying, everyone who drives one will want to buy one.

Because now you can't drive one without buying it first.

That's not true, though. You can still go to a Tesla dealer and test drive one. You can't necessarily test drive the exact model that you would buy but that's exactly the edge case that the new return policy is meant to address.

Did you miss the part where they said they're closing their stores?

Where did they say they're closing all their stores? All they said was that they were moving sales to online only. They'll still have service centers and other physical locations unless there's a source somewhere that says they're closing all physical locations...

https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/28/18245296/tesla-stores-clo...

Looks like I was right.

You can if your friend has one they will let you drive.

Love comments like this. Everyone has a friend with a Tesla.

You can also steal one and drive it around for a bit if you don't mind.

This kind of comment isn't helping. There is also Turo, a service where you can rent various cars including different Teslas. Pricier than normal rentals but not a bad investment if it helps someone make the right choice for them.

I drove a Model S. None of my cars is a Model S.

I remember the “salesperson” talking about how quiet it was as wind noise whistled through the cabin like we were in a Corolla. The A4 I was driving at the time was immensely quieter at highway speeds but I nodded and played along.

I’m convinced the aspirational status of Teslas means people who haven’t experienced actual luxury vechicles are buying into the hype that Tesla is somehow peak luxury, or even deserves to be called luxury outside of pricing (especially when you compare a Model S to it's price-mates)

Which leads to hyperbolic statements like this one.

Though a model 3 does not compete with an A4, it competes with a Honda Civic or similar...

Not really, a Civic starts at 20K in the USA.

For an absolute base model. Most of the models start in the mid 20s, and you can find a $33,000 Civic (as in one that's available to buy, not "I clicked every single option in the Build menu") easily enough.

No the Tesla 3 does not compete with cars that can be had for 20k. The closest things to civics are the leaf and bolt.

It was a Model S we were in

And even so, the comparison of Teslas to other cars just highlight the absurdity of their MSRPs relative to the luxury they deliver.

I’m assuming you mean Model 3 is the size of a Civic or similar so it competes with them.

I mean technically sure, but the pricing doesn’t reflect that!

Until today it cost as much as an A4 at A3 levels of room, and honestly maybe not even A3 levels of luxury.

Now you can pay for a Model 3 with no heated seats for a price that no “normal” Civic reaches.

I mean it ties with a Type R! That’s a sports car that you might compare to a what, 60k Model 3 Performance trim?

I have a Model S and I used to own several BMWs. Honestly, what luxury does an entry level BMW or Audi even provide ? BMW 3 series is a joke with it 4 cylinder engine, soft handling, and a tiny screen where you have to visit the dealer to get a map update. Teslas are way more luxurious in the sense that they provide a 21st century car.

To the average base model buyer a 4 cyl means nothing when it’s paired with a silky smooth transmission, soft handling is a plus, the “tiny” (very crisp and responsive) screen is modern, and I’ll take wireless CarPlay over Tesla's Bluetooth integration any day.

And for the rest of us there’s the 340i which is still only as expensive as what was the only Model 3 you could buy before 2pm today...

Found the BMW 3 series buyer who bought on downpayment. No shame in buyer's regrets. Keep on trucking and downpaying.

First off I don’t know what you mean when you keep saying “bought on down payment”...

Second one of my cars is 4 series, I don’t own a 3 series. And it’s a 440i which is faster and more luxurious than a comparable Model 3. And I can put the roof down when I feel like it.

Third, why did you make an alt for this?

Depends on where you are I guess. In Sweden the Model 3 is significantly more expensive than an A4. And while they haven't announced the price of the new cheap Model 3 yet I will be very surprised if it comes in under twice the price of a Civic

You have a valid point about inexperienced owners but the car (more premium Model 3s) has been favorably compared with a BMW M3 in a similar price range, by people who know premium cars well, and they have called it a toss-up just on driving feel alone. Which has a totally different character in the two cars but both fantastic. That’s without even taking into account cost of ownership, auto pilot features, safety, beast mode AWD, or energy sustainability.

If you do take even some of those factors into account, it’s a no brainer.

For wind noise it’s not the best, but in many other aspects it’s far ahead.

More favorably compared by who? I’ve sat in model 3,s, and x, and when compared with similar priced BMW or Mercs, there is a massive difference in interior luxury and comfort. Seriously, go and experience being inside a 100k 7 series bmw to a 100k model s. It’s like night and day in comparison. The Tesla’s always feel cheap in comparison. The handling, road noise, luxury features, seat comfort, etc are all inferior in Tesla cars.

Also, Tesla know this themselves! Elon admits that Teslas are overpriced and that current buyers are subsidizing future buyers as they scale up. Also, a friend of mine used to be the manager of a major Tesla delivery center. He said the quality control was terrible and they had tons of cars with paint and panel issues. In fact he said bad paint jobs was one of their biggest source of problems.

I’ve had the opposite experience.

A friend took me for a drive in their model 3 recently. At one point we hit around 130mph, and it was the smoothest and quietest ride I’ve ever had at the speed.

That being said the BMW 7s I’ve been in were all from the early 2000s, but I never found any other car to be as quiet as a Tesla.

That was a rough time to be in a 7 series. Bunch of new tech with horrible teething trouble.

Yea, that's a good point. It was... well, had a lot of features. Some of them worked. Some of the time. And plenty of sensors to let you know when they weren't. Except when the sensors were the thing that was bad.

You are comparing cars 15(!) years apart. I'm sure that pretty much every car today is a considerably nicer experience than a model T ford, but that's hardly a fair comparison :D

What year of Model S did you test drive?

This is a couple of years back so I don’t recall anymore but...

What do you mean year, Teslas don’t have model years because you’re always getting the most improved car

-Tesla “salesperson”

Yeah they don't have years because they update them all the time, incrementally. They still are each made in a certain year. If you drove it a couple years back, things have moved forward since your conclusions were locked in your mind.

>I remember the “salesperson” talking about how quiet it was as wind noise whistled through the cabin like we were in a Corolla.

One slightly weird thing is that because there is no engine noise (other than a slight whine on heavy acceleration) all those other road noises become more noticeable and it seems noisier.

I agree with the luxury vehicle thing, especially on the S. Mine had the seal between the window and the front door literally fall off at one point early into ownership.

I got mine for two main reasons: the acceleration is great fun in the "performance" models and I don't have to deal with buying gasoline. It's also a pretty damn safe car, which is nice when I take the kids somewhere.

There are some nice tech features (like being able to summon the car from a tight parking spot) that feel luxurious too, but I agree that they badly need to work on fit and finish for a $150K price point car.

Most luxury cars have almost zero engine noise inside the cabin. Also at speeds over 20mph, wind noise is louder than engine noise outside the vehicle, so electric cars aren’t really quieter than ICE except in parking lots.

That’s not always the case. It depends on the luxury car. I visited a Masarati dealer, and their selling point against a Model S was that the engine was loud. (“You want a car that that sounds like a car. You want to hear that purr and and feel that rumble. You can’t get that with a Tesla.”)

Same thing happens with luxury sports cars. I test drive Ann F-Type, and the damn thing comes a button to make your car louder. The call it “active exhaust” or something. It basically shoots gasoline into the exhaust so the car backfires. It’s basically rolling coal for rich people. The car was so loud, it was hard to have a conversation. I hated it.

Those are sports cars. They don't compete with a Model 3 or Model S. They compete with the Tesla Roadster. Have you ever been in one? You can't hear each other at all it's so loud.

Good thing there's an "inactive exhaust" function.

Maseratis have a signature sound, that's one of their core selling points. If you remove that, you are left with a mediocre quality car with insane depreciation.

And you know, for a car/technology company I find it odd they don't do any sort of active noise cancellation. Especially when they pin themselves on making luxury electric cars.

Agreed. I had a 2016 A4. Went to Austin for a conference, was in a 2016 Model S. Road noise was better in the Audi.

And in my current car, compared to a friend's new S? No comparison, mine is far quieter, despite being a V8 (Jaguar XJ) thanks to in cab active noise cancelling and others.

I have a Q7, $20k cheaper than the X and far nicer; Tesla can’t even get CarPlay. If I am paying $100k+ for a car and it has less connectivity to my devices than a KIA, that’s a problem. During the time I own the Q7, the gasoline expense isn’t going to exceed the markup for the X. I like Musk’s vision, but Teslas are the Honda Civic of the Silicon Valley crowd.

But you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution so... but yeah the Q7 is nice. BTW no problems whatsoever with device connectivity with the Model 3. And the X is a moving target; it’s improved all the time so past experience does not indicate the current situation.

Buying overpriced luxury cars ICE or EV is not making anyone part of any solution.

If you want to be part of the solution go find an old, safe, (it’s 2019, a 10 year old car can finally in the “modern era” of safety, AEB and all) vehicle that has amortized the insane ecological costs required to make a new car

That's the noise of outside + wind. The materials used for insulating external noise add non negligible weight to the car. You can make it quieter, but at the cost of reducing MPG (or MPAh?) :(

I doubt sound dampening has to be that much of an expense or added weight. It’s just not batteries, which is Tesla’s core tech concern.

Spot on.

I agree with the luxury statement.

I tell people that the parts of the car that make it a car are excellent, and the parts of the car that make it luxury need some help. That being said, I've bought two Teslas so far with absolutely no regrets.

One of the reasons I will likely never own a Tesla is because I have driven all of them...including the limited edition Roadster (courtesy of an old boss that liked collecting fast, shiny things). Other than the impressive acceleration, the handling and ride other ride tangibles of every Tesla model is below-average for both its price point and its class.

Couldn't agree more. Handling is so much more valuable to me than fancy stitching and 0-60 times in a straight line.

Handling below average on a Model 3? Really?

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