Ask HN: Is there a hippie commune for hackers? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Is there a hippie commune for hackers?

97 pointscitizenkeys104 comments

Seriously, is there a hippie commune for hackers? There's gotta be one somewhere in the Bay Area.

If I could just plow the fields during the day and work/sleep in a little cottage and be left alone, that'd be alright with me.

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I spent some time on a farm that could liberally be called a "commune" and there's actually a ton of innovation to be had all over the place. Somewhere, I probably still have a moleskine with notes on the matter. A couple things I remember:

-Crop Rotations: The texts I read about this subject were the result of some very painstaking note-taking, and keeping all this information straight can confound even the very studious. We had at least 3 copies of Elliot Coleman's "The New Organic Grower" around and they were all falling apart from constant reference. Having instant access to your planting history would be invaluable, especially if coupled with pH effects of relevant crops and other useful info.

Certifications: The process for getting that nifty "certified organic" label is quite difficult. You have to submit all sorts of things. It was even worse for us because we had commercial kitchen equipment (we sold jarred jams, salsas, etc)

Marketing: We sold shares of our output through a CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) program. ~100% of people who partook found out about us from meeting us at a farmer's market. I think there's a decent market for CSA shares, but not really any way of comparison shopping, or even knowing what's available.

It would be neat to work on a project to solve these problems while simultaneously encountering them on the day-to-day. But fair warning: "plowing the fields all day" does not really leave one in the mood for hacking. Contemplation? Surely. Conversation? Absolutely. But I wouldn't expect to get a whole lot of hacking done, at least not in your first season.

>I probably still have a moleskine with notes on the matter.

Why do people insist on telling us the brand of their notebook? It's just a book with some blank paper dude...

I think its more like how people call an "over head speaker system" a "tannoy" or adults over the age of 50 call any console video game system "the nintendo" etc.

I think it probably has something more to do with this: http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2009/02/24/122-moleskine-not...

So you're admitting that the only reason you made your previous comment was because you thought that the commenter was being smug and you wanted to put him/her in his/her place?

Alternatively, I googled it after being dumbfounded by the seemingly random specificness of the post (does anybody say "I had a few beers while I watched my Panasonic"? No, everyone just calls TVs "TVs"), and discovered that the poster was just making an attempt at being smug.

The guy writes an interesting and informative post, and the part you latch onto is how he refers to his freakin' notebook?

I take issue with your taking issue with his taking issue with the post :)

Specifically, this is a threaded comment system. We can have as many discussions about something (post or other comment) as we want: go off on wild tangents, point out the spelling, have a pun thread, mention patterns of blogging/commenting the parent fits into, reply to the author on a separate subject, share anecdotes related to the subject of the post, and actually talk about the content of a post or comment, all at the same time, without breaking anything. That's what's so neat about threaded discussion: it doesn't require the "comparative notability" that a linear conversation needs in order to function.

TV's are commodities. There's no important difference from one brand to another. Moleskines, by merit of their unique design and brand identity, are in a different boat.

No. There is a gajillion brands of hardly distinguishable black notebooks. Differences in quality are far less than those between TV manufacturers.

But how many television set brands have the brand recognition of Moleskine though?

Much like Hemingway, who also wrote down his thoughts in a moleskine, I feel that there is no friend as loyal as a book.

It's called "descriptive detail", and can add atmosphere to your writing.

Why do people insist on telling us their pet peeves? It's just your pet peeve dude...

Agreed- even defining the notebook as a moleskine suggests a certain type of content. More so, it's a seemingly generalized trademark (like Kleenex or Xerox).

Why not call it a moleskine?

I am aware you are being facetious...

But by questioning why he voiced his argument, you validated his argument and thus the reasoning behind it. Your question, posed as such, answers itself, in a way.

What beauty.

I'm guessing you (and I) wouldn't fit in on a commune.

Alright. I called it a moleskine because that's what we called it on the farm. We ordered them like a dozen at a time and everyone used them. Truth be told, I didn't even consider calling it anything else. I wasn't trying to be smug, I used the term that matched with the image in my head of what I was describing.

Edit: We used the Volant X-Small, which is part of why nobody called it a notebook. (http://officesupplygeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/moles...)

I made my own just outside of Austin, TX once.

Bought a 10 AC farm just outside Blanco. Was already certified for growing organic "elephant" garlic.

Had a little cottage, a well, with rainwater collection (I flushed the toilets with this, it was nearly trivial to change-over the plumbing.)

Dropped Cable into it (for IP).

Added 2KW of solar panels, and a 250 gallon propane tank.

Was into it for maybe $130K, fully paid-off.

Grew my own food, hacked some.

Got tired of living without other technology folk around, sold it.

Can you provide more details on this? By "little cottage", I assume this was meant for one (you), and $130K might be a bit steep for a single-person, experimental venture. 10 AC is hardly a small area, though, and suggests potential to expand it to, say, a 3-10 person number. If the marginal costs required to increase water, electricity, etc, to support such levels don't add to the final price tag dramatically, it could be quite interesting.

SuperHappyDevHouse or Hacker Dojo?

http://superhappydevhouse.org/ http://wiki.hackerdojo.com/

Also...

List of Hacker Spaces - http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/List_of_Hacker_Spaces

These places look cool. I'm gonna check out that Hacker Dojo place.

This may be relevant to your interests: the next SHDH[1] is being hosted at Hacker Dojo.

[1]: http://superhappydevhouse.org/

Noisebridge is an active hacker space I go to once or twice a week: http://noisebridge.net

Since I live in San Francisco, I'm going to this place later tonight.

Noisebridge has the right idea. If you've never been there, just show up and hang out awhile. Seriously.

Only thing about hacker spaces in general is "no sleeping". My vision involves a place to sleep and take a time-out.

commune... be left alone...

Bay Area... little cottage...

hackers... plow the fields...

I don't think you've decided what you really want here.

If you want to live in a small, communal, hacker workplace in the Bay area, then you should join or create a technology startup.

If you want to plow fields, live in a small cottage, and be left alone, you should buy a small house in the countryside.

Not having decided what he wants may be part of the question.

Some clarification:

Commune does not mean being without internet, nor does it necessarily imply growing food.

Think about it: if we had bunk beds, we could stack hackers on top of each other to save space. Compress at least twice as many in the same space. And if we bought food in bulk, we could eat better on the same amount we ordinarily need to live on ramen budgets.

All this being said, I am broke, broke, broke! I burned through all my school financial aid until next semester starts in January. My email is citizenkeys@gmail.com . If anybody's got an extra bedroom for a month...

Let me know if you figure something out.

I've got $4000 in the bank. Rent is by far my largest expense. Solve that problem and your runway length approaches infinity.

If you have the cash to buy a place, then all you need is utilities and property taxes, which are comparitively low.

There are some people whose savings draw enough bank interest to cover such things.

but tightly-packed communal living is a solution to high rent. Share a bedroom between 8 people. Add office space, kitchen, bathroom, and you've got your entire startup packed into one 2-room apartment.

I just watched The Secret of Kells on Netflix and was wondering the same thing. The protagonist has a complete devotion to the creation of illuminated texts which seemed like a perfect stand in for [insert open source project that would illuminate the world here]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_of_Kells

Just watched that this afternoon. Fantastic film. I can't recommend it highly enough.

Not a commune, exactly, but you can go live on a tropical beach with other American hackers with CocoVivo -- http://www.cocovivo.com/

Seriously... I'm going to register a domain and try and set this up on kickstarter. If anyone wants to help out with design or whatever, send me an email to citizenkeys@gmail.com .

In theory, if we just had a big rental place with couches, bunkbeds, a kitchen, and a place to shower. That'd be enough to start.

fyi there may be laws that regulate how many people may live in a single residence. i know there are in my part of the world.

Anyone thinking of working with him on a housing project should consider his attitude toward contracts and paying rent:

"Here's how you deal with big apartment complex property management companies: just lie. Seriously. And give a friend's phone number as your "employer". Make up some fake paystubs in quickbooks. Big property management companies usually hire stupid people that sit in the office all day, do nothing, and collect a paycheck. They don't verify income, or any of the other things they request. Since they don't care, neither should you. Fuck 'em.

Another final comment about big apartment complexes: at a certain point, if you know you're going to move, just quit paying rent. Apartment complexes take a hands-off approach to evictions and actually file real eviction proceedings. As such, you can sit there and live rent free for an entire month or more while they file the legal paperwork against you. Save that rent money you're not paying and save it for when you do find another place." -citizenkeys

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1892706

So I wasn't acting alone when I bought capitalistcommune.org a few months back?

I have a 'giant' mansion...in Iowa...with open rooms for hackers. Hit me up, libertarian-capitalist-economical living can be a real ideal. See pic here: http://organicgrant.posterous.com/winter-home-0

organicgrant [at] gmail.com High-speed internet, large garden plots right down the street, and a few blocks from a (20,000 enrolled) state university

That doesn't look "giant". Just sayin', before a bunch of people show up expecting a hundred available rooms.

Around 4,000 sq ft. 6 bedrooms, library, bar/lounge in the basement. 3 bedrooms are occupied, but if you want to live for basically free and focus on your hustle, do get in touch.

I think I'm going to pursue pushing this idea out more in my area. Napoleon Hill would view it as a Mastermind.

That's a great idea. Can't see the photo though. Is that a gmail link?

Fixed the link, Posterous issues.

http://organicgrant.posterous.com/winter-home

That looks like a lot of the houses up by Dodge/Church/Brown streets Iowa City. Am I close? That'd be ~4 blocks from the closest UI building.

House is in Cedar Falls, Iowa (University of Northern Iowa) Though it has a CS department, hackers will respect its reputation for producing Elementary Education teachers (make proper inference here) and the highest pass rate for Accounting majors taking the CPA exam.

Since we're discussing Iowa, I live in a trailer house in Ames and have a spare room. I'm five miles off the ISU campus, just outside the north edge of town. adam at reineke.me

wouldn't a hacker hippie commune be more about building a robotic plow and spending your, now spare, time OCRing and analyzing old farmers almanacs to determine the optimal time to plant/rotate/water crops?

many years ago, i've lived on non-hacker hippie communes. there's actually several outside of austin in texas. it makes sense given all the cheap ranch land in rural texas.

ideally, you have a "main house" with the kitchen and where everybody meets up. then you have little cottages all over the ranch with bunk beds where everybody sleeps and works. when people need to buy stuff, they drive into town.

for hackers that just need a roof over their head and a few meals so they don't starve, it's not a bad idea.

Most hackers want internet. Otherwise they wouldn't be reading Hacker News.

Maybe they scrape the site for offline viewing when they come into town (something similar to RMS's 'web-to-email' setup)?

http://www.sproutrobot.com

Wow, only on hacker news would my flippant, but secretly serious, comment lead to an actual working implementation of something great. Are you involved with the sproutrobot? Super cool idea and I've just signed up!

Original announcement: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1336406

In today's culture, it might be dreamed up on facebook, funded on kickstarter, promoted on twitter, picked up by 10,000 blogs that all poach from each other and then abandoned by the next semester because the earth-water-sun interface is ancient and suffers from significant design issues whose tickets never get responded to by the upstream provider.

I'm tempted to start blogging up the project proposal for a hippie arcology to be built on a south facing slope in southern Oregon with geothermal backup heat and a fiber optic connection to the internet for the remote workers whose economic contributions exempt them from the maintenance duties that the less skilled have to do (hey, someone needs to turn the compost heaps and feed the tilapia you know). The basic design concept is to have one largish thermal envelope that encloses multiple garden and dwelling spaces that are kept at a relatively constant temperature year round.

I would really like to bring the Whole Earth Catalog hacking tradition full circle.

  > hey, someone needs to turn the compost heaps and
  > feed the tilapia you know

Now I'm just picturing the Dharma Initiative, and Ben's burnt-out, drunken father that came to 'the island' thinking that he was going to be a part of something special, only to find out that they wanted him to be the janitor.

"Home Power" magazine is what you need to check out:

http://homepower.com/home/

All their back issues are available online in pdf. They have all the details on cost-effective clandestine home energy solutions.

Also, the trick to cheap hot water is a water heating coil on your roof facing the sun. The water gets hotter as it runs through the coil.

> I would really like to bring the Whole Earth Catalog hacking tradition full circle.

Sort of a tangent, but the Whole Earth Catalog scene and the tech scene were surprisingly inter-related in the 60s-80s, which is something I didn't know until recently. Ted Nelson, who had coined the word "hypertext" about three years before the first WEC was published, was greatly influenced by it for his 1974 book Computer Lib / Dream Machines, and Steve Jobs was an avid reader as well. There was even briefly a software version in the 80s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_Earth_Software_Catalog_an...

I think I was surprised to find a connection mainly because in 2010 I associate the Whole Earth Catalog more with anti-technology primitivists, which doesn't seem to have originally been the case--- seems plenty of technologists were also interested in it, since DIY doesn't have to mean primitivism.

A commune where you're left alone? A charming oxymoron.

Like a monastery?

Basically a drop-in center / hostel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostel

Residential shared office space, really.

Reminds me of the setting in Stephenson's Anathem.

A high-tech monastery would be great, except that the need for a good connection to the web pretty much kills the whole isolation idea.

I've been thinking about it for years. The only problem is that most programmers seem to be status quo capitalists bordering on libertarian. It might be easier to teach hippies to program than programmers not to be aspirational yuppie SWPLs.

A couple of cults have gotten by on programming and/or web design, Aum Shinrikyo and Heaven's Gate come to mind.

yeah... I looked up heaven's gate earlier.

I'm talking about a "do your own thing" place to eat, sleep, and code. not any sort of weird cult.

In communes, you don't really do your own thing. I think you're talking about an apartment building where a lot of hackers live that has a hacking room instead of a gym. Or possibly efficiency apartments. Maybe you meant "common kitchen" rather than commune? Like a dorm?

I'm thinking along the lines of a 24-hour drop-in center / hostel for developers instead of crazy bums.

The wikipedia entry for hostels kinda sums it up, including the picture of the taiwanese hostel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostel

A hostel is just like a hotel, except you usually don't get a room (unless you're willing to pony up an extra $20.) You're just looking for a cheap place to stay, but you don't want it to be scary. Hostels generally are not scary at all, and are filled with mostly pleasant foreigners. They used to have rules that require that you have ID proving that you don't live in the town that you're hostelling in, though; don't know if that's changed at all.

The work must be shared by all.

Teaching hippies to program doesn't work, they assume you've been brainwashed by The Man and you're trying to trick them.

(not joking)

I think the bay area hacker version of a hippie commune is a co-op loft that hosts parties on the weekends to cover some expenses. Or some version there of. The ones I knew of still charged rent but it was easy enough to work out a way to do work for rent or a sliding scale.

Not nearly as communal as what you're imagining, but way more communal than 99% of living situations.

I lived in co-ops for two years of college. It was very inexpensive, about $550/month including "rent" (not actually rent since we were technically owners), all utilities, furnished, and all meals, in an excellent downtown location near campus. A comparable apartment in the area might go for $700/month per person, assuming it's a two- or three-bedroom place, and that doesn't include utilities or food. Of course the rooms were tiny, the house was very used-up (the two I lived in were 50+ years old), lots of carpet stains, scuffed floors, and you have to deal with living with 20+ young people (noisy, drama etc.). It was a good way to meet people though. At my school at least, co-ops were basically frats for hippies.

I was joking about this with a friend a while back. I prize my solitude a bit much, but I think it might be fun. Outdoor work might be better for hackers' brains than most realize. Get your body in shape in the morning and your mind in shape in the afternoon. Hrmm.

You could always start up one of your own. Kickstarter could help. :P

Maker spaces are evolving towards this ....

fabrication labs out in the woods. earthships and repraps.

Factor E farm in Missouri: http://www.youtube.com/user/marcinose

http://www.openecology.org is pretty cool idea too

Have you considered moving to Israel and joining a kibbutz?

Isn't there a three years mandatory military service if you move there permanently before 4X years of age...?

Only if you actually apply for citizenship. I believe there's a way for foreign citizens (US? others?) to live there indefinitely w/o actually immigrating.

I don't know details, but I'm pretty sure that only applies if you're seeking citizenship. Also, at older ages, the amount of service you have to do goes down considerably.

OK, thanks for information to you and maxaf.

I only know one guy that went there a bit (academic) and he loved the place.

Reminds me of the Cory Doctorow short story: "The Things that Make Me Weak and Strange Get Engineered Away"

Available here: http://www.tor.com/stories/2008/08/weak-and-strange

In case you don't like short stories and didn't click the link, the title is a line from a Jonathon Coulton (of Portal fame) song, "The Future Soon" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEEDa9Mej8

sitting at noisebridge right now: https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Noisebridge

this is almost what i had in mind, only my version has bedrooms, showers, and allows pets.

noisebridge kicks ass. it's a giant hacker studio. i've never been here before. if you're a hacker and live in san francisco, you owe it to yourself to just show up here at least once.

i will be here for awhile tonight if anybody wants to chill out.

Noisebridge has had some issues (actually ongoing issues) with people that treat it as a living space, or just "forget to take the last BART" with suspicious regularity. Maybe your idea would solve that problem. Or maybe it would exacerbate it, not sure.

Unrelated: there's also another movement called "cohousing" which tries to strike a middle ground between the post-WWII standard of one-family-per-house, and communes that tend to have a complete lack of privacy.

http://www.cohousing.org/

Or if you're anywhere else, check out your local hackerspace (the general term for something like Noisebridge): http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/

I share a large close to luxury house with atleast three hackers located in Bali, Indonesia. Recently we finished the transfer by getting a good internet connection (not that easy in mountains, but totally worth it). My advice - move to the friendly environment that lets you live off really small money (100$ is a good salary for locals here) and then things are easy and pleasing.

That sounds brillant. Do you have pictures of it that you could share?

I met a couple of people about two years ago in Tennessee who lived in the middle of nowhere in a house in the mountains. They had a couple of solar panels that basically produced enough power to run an iMac so they could do some freelance design work to make money. They had a Verizon data card for net access.

Otherwise they lived like it was 1900.

I can't imagine that they only used the iMac for design work, did they?

They were doing some sort of web design I think, so.... I don't see why not?

I was just thinking that if they didn't keep up with their skills, they might have a hard time getting work. (Not necessarily that they were using it for video games or youtube or anything.)

Okay, I got the concept down:

What I'm imagining is a drop-in center / hostel for hackers. The wikipedia article on hostels kinda sums up what i have in mind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostel

The pictures do a good job of showing what I had in mind.

Yes! I'm involved with a hacker space in Vienna, Austria (we're proud that Noisebridge cites us as inspiration) and I've long believed that on the floor above every hackerspace there should be a hostel. A "hackers in residence" program, if you will – complete with international exchanges and a "worldwide pass" subscription. I haven't figured out how to cover the starting costs, but using Kickstarter is a really good idea. You should start a mailing list/Facebook group/wiki.

I don't know if any are hacker-specific, but you might check the list of communities here:

http://directory.ic.org/iclist/geo.php

This is something I'd be very interested in, I'm currently looking for a new place to live. If anyone knows of anyone doing something like this in the UK, let me know!

You can also check out the Palo Alto Hacker House, http://www.facebook.com/hackerhouse

or http://hackerhouse.bluwiki.com/

that page says its hasn't been updated since april. i am curious about the current tenants.

A hacker, hippie commune? Why not just a hacker commune? Or just a hippie commune?

reminds me of this thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1403301

i still really like the idea

if you build it...

i will come! :P

GNU?

Have you considered arcosanti? It's where most of the ravers I know went when they realized their lives were empty without drugs.

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