Hacker News Reader

Comment by harry8 | Hacker News Reader

The nba clearly wants the refs to be bent, it's a requirement. They actively encourage seeing it the home teams way, favouring the big stars and call it to keep it close as this is all good for marketing. The question is not whether the refs are bent it's merely who is paying them to be so. I doubt anyone thinks the nba refs honestly try to enforce the rules with an even hand. Do any adults think this? NBA is a mix of sport and Pro wrestling, which seems a shame given the immense skill levels and training on display.

View on HN

I don't think it's that simple and I don't see why it's a given that refs are bent.

There is far more money at stake in maintaining the legitimacy of the the NBA (player salaries, tv deals, team valuations - all of these easily trump all the money made off of betting). Wouldn't that money fight a lot harder than any bent refs in order to fight corruption and maintain the legitimacy of the NBA?

If a bigger story about bent refs got out it would destroy the NBA and a lot of the associated revenue. I'm sure the NBA is aware of this.

I'm not arguing that there is no corruption, but I don't see why it's so 'obviously' commonplace as you and others suggest. I'd like a more concrete reason why than 'its good for marketing' since that seems like a weak argument in the bigger picture of money made from the NBA.

If you've watched any NBA in the past decade you can see a trend of calling fouls against teams that are winning too heavily against favorites. It's not hard.

> If you've watched any NBA in the past decade you can see a trend of calling fouls against teams that are winning too heavily against favorites. It's not hard.

This should be fairly easy to test with play-by-play data[0]. I don't have time to do it just this moment, but I may give it a stab later.

[0] https://eightthirtyfour.com/data

I am sure such a study would be interesting to a wide audience.

Thanks. If I manage to work through it, I'll put it online somewhere (and post the link to HN).

This isn't a ref throwing games for kickbacks, but it's surprising that nowhere in this thread has anyone mentioned the most blatant game-fixing in league history, which was the 1984 Lakers-Celtics finals.

In this series, the league thought their predominantly-White fanbase needed to see Larry Bird (who is White) win the series. (Spoiler alert: Celtics won in 7).

Some of the highlights (lowlights?) of Magic Johnson blatantly throwing the series (especially the first play in this video, sending game 1 into overtime) are here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSlWNU5_JVc&t=91s

The comments on the youtube are interesting, lots of people call it game fixing. Nobody who has ever played even semicompetitive organized basketball could mistake this for an honest performance.

Downthread there is also a reference to the infamous "Phoenix Suns Free Throw Parade" 1993 game 7 WCF (in which the Suns went 57 for 64 from the line, not a typo), which was also overtly thrown by the league for revenue reasons.

Former competitive basketball player here, still play pickup regularly. "Nobody who has ever played even semicompetitive organized basketball could mistake this for an honest performance" is blatant hyperbole.

I could not possibly disagree with you more re: 1984 Lakers/Celtics, and I'm a huge Lakers fan who'd love to believe they were really the better team. I'm not going to bother to click on the video, but I'm sure you're referring to Magic dribbling the clock out at the end of game 2, and throwing the ball away at the end of game 4? These are called mistakes, and they get made all the time. Steph Curry threw the ball away similarly with a needless behind the back pass in game 7 2016, almost exactly the same as Magic's game 4 (although with a bit more time left in the game). JR Smith utterly forgot what the score was at the end of Game 1 last year and did exactly the same thing as Magic in 1984 game 2. These examples are just from the past few years, there are countless others. I'll also point out those 2 examples are both from the NBA finals. If you just want examples of professional players throwing bad passes resulting in turnovers or dribbling too long resulting in time running out, the former happens about ~10 times in every single NBA game, the latter happens a couple of times per week during the regular season.

You're talking about the highest pressure situation in the sport, players make mistakes. You are sorely underestimating the competitiveness of these athletes. I defy you to watch any interview Magic gave in the 80s and to this present day about the 84 finals, and still argue that he threw the series on purpose. His first NBA finals matchup with Larry Bird, who had been his rival for 5 years at that point, going back to their college careers? Either he's the the world's greatest actor, or that loss emotionally and mentally devastated him for a year until he got redemption in 85.

You say the league needed the white fanbase's team to win, and it is absolutely true there was a huge racial component to the Lakers/Celtics rivalry in the 80s. How do you then explain the 85 and 87 finals? I consider myself pretty knowledgable about NBA history dating back to the NBA/ABA merger, and to be blunt your comments sound very uninformed.

What is a "competitive basketball player"? Did you play professionally? Or were you just really competitive when you played ball? :p

OP probably played AAU, the competative league for youth basketball which is more intense than a local school league.

You are trying to prove that a league isn't crooked by pointing out all the similar "mistakes" that make the league look crooked. I'm not saying that they are crooked. I'm just wondering if you have thought this argument through.

Don't forget the Lakers - Kings 2002 conference finals. The NBA really wanted Shaq and Kobe in the finals that year.

> They actively encourage seeing it the home teams way

I can't speak to the rest of your comment, but this might not be "actively encouraged" since it is universal in every sport. Every single study that I have seen on sports refs shows an inherent bias in favor of the home team. It is just human nature for your actions to be subconsciously swayed by how you know the 10,000+ people around you will react. This is one of the many things that makes up home field advantage in sports.

The Toronto Maple Leafs would like a word with you.

I think there can also be a bias in favour of teams that are still in developing regions that the sport is still trying to conquer.

When a team can sell out a stadium for decades despite their record, who cares if they win or lose?

Is it common that teams sell out a stadium with a bad record? I know there's the Cubs and some other "lovable losers", but I wasn't under the impression that it was exceptional. White sox ticket prices/sales seem responsive to their record.

In a way, one could interpret this as meaning that pro wrestling is the most honest sport. The fakery is in plain sight.

As much as I love a good conspiracy theory, refs are biased in favor of home teams in EVERY sport:

http://thefixisin.net/homefield.html

Then you never heard of Scott Foster, who is the usual ref when the road team needs to win an important playoff game.

How often do you watch games? I think that instances of this are much closer to an outlier than the usual. By nature of their jobs, refs only get talked about when there’s a controversial call. Superstar calls included(which is something that is as much a skill as it is bias), it’s extremely easy to say “they’re not making even handed decisions” if that’s the perspective you chose to look at it from.

They only throw the games when it is important.

1993 Game 7 WC Finals Suns had 64 free throw attempts. But it was important for the Suns to win because Chicago had won the East the day before and Barkley v. Jordan just had to happen.

https://nextimpulsesports.com/2013/06/05/flashback-the-day-p...

There are games, e.g. in the 2006 finals, where one player shoots more free throws than the entire other team.

Well, the NBA can't be fixed on a systemic level, or Battista's use of Donaghy would have little game theoretical chance of success. Indeed, mathematically speaking, it's more likely that it was not fixed, or the success rate this pair were racking up would not have been feasible.

This is true in all professional sport. After all, it's entertainment, a movie which can change its ending. If something is on TV, it's amenable to be gamed.

Completely true. I challenge a downvoter to reply with any pro sport without confirmed fixing, PED use, and predatory hiring.

> I challenge a downvoter to reply with any pro sport without confirmed fixing, PED use, and predatory hiring.

That's not the point your parent comment made. Your statement should be "I challenge a downvoter to reply with any pro sport that wants non-bent refs"

The refs definitely protect the stars. But the stars are why people pay money and buy tickets. So there is definitely pressure to keep the stars off the bench and on the court. And if one team is extending a lead, they seem to love to call fouls to keep the score close and the game interesting.

Whether they do it consciously or unconsciously or at the behest of the nba, who knows. But definitely the NBA, like all major sports, are more entertainment rather than sport.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com