What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician | Hacker News Reader

What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

nytimes.com

110 pointsmykowebhn145 comments

People from poor demographics in general are discriminated against in various ways.

Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus.

Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted.

That kid from a better off family that shows talent in math? Probably get recognized for it from an early age and gets tutors and advanced training. Probably already completed proof based courses in analysis, algebra by the time they completed high school. They get into better schools and have ahead start. Even if they are just as talented as you the poor kid.

>Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted.

This was my experience, and was challenging. At the time I was more inclined to the arts, but the problem is the same. Who can you talk to about the books you're reading (my particular passion)?

This I guess is exactly what I was thinking. As a legacy from segregation (and ultimately, slavery), African Americans still are disproportionately poor. This explains the macro-statistic, that only 1% of Math PhD's are given to African Americans.

I don't doubt there is some personal bias that is at play too. As a PhD who isn't Black but isn't white or Asian, I face it too, but the personal challenges I face paled in comparison to the structural and purely economic challenges I had to overcome.

From this point of view it would be interesting to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of race-based affirmative action and income-based affirmative action.

> Probably already completed proof based courses in analysis, algebra by the time they completed high school.

Is this common?

Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus.

I've read and listened to a number of accounts about how peers in poor neighborhoods are the biggest barrier to academic achievement.

Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted.

Or worse, your peers punish you for your ability. In my personal experience, they can even tell you that you are sexually inadequate and somehow less essentially human. This feedback is all the worse, because it is genuinely believed by the one giving it.

There are cultural contexts where children form groups and help each other and offer moral support. Such social interaction seems to be attached to high performance in just about every human endeavor where skill and knowledge are important. One study found that Asian kids were very good at forming such peer groups to study math, and that African American children were much more prone to studying alone. Asian cultures are noteworthy, in that academic achievement is prized even by the poorer segments of society, though I've also known African Americans who are from families with such a subculture which prizes knowledge and academic achievement.

Hold on, let me catch up here: your poor-neighborhood peers tell you you're "sexually inadequate" and therefore you go on to not be a mathematician? Can you connect those dots for me?

They are really easy to connect. Ex addicts that keep addict friends do not fare that well. Peer pressure can push you up but can also pull you down, calling you to engage in self destructive behaviours when you are already having an hard time climbing to a better life.

https://quillette.com/2019/02/10/public-educations-dirty-sec...

Hold on, let me catch up here: your poor-neighborhood peers tell you you're "sexually inadequate"

No. My peers told me I was sexually inadequate and less than essentially human. This was also mixed up with my having been molested be a peer in high school. As a result, I was pretty much unable to have a relationship until my late 20's, and even so it was hard to sustain a relationship long term for many years beyond that. (I'm happily married now, however.)

Insults and gaslighting with regards to one's sexuality are a particularly potent psychological weapon, and from what I've seen both as a direct participant and as an observer, some people from poorer backgrounds will actively punish those who are demonstrating academic excellence, or who are cultivating themselves in some other fashion. Such people are likely just a small percentage of the general populace. However, if one "sticks out" then that small percentage tends to find you more easily.

I was told even by cousins and close family that "reading so much would make me a fag" and that I should play more soccer. And certainly didn't help my academic career when the bullying I suffered stopped when I started behaving like a problem student.

In my case, this kind of discouragement actually helped me pursue a career in STEM, as it was the perfect excuse to leave my city, but I don't thinks this kind of environment is healthy and nurturing for someone's dreams.

> Can you connect those dots for me?

Living in a bad environment definitely does influence your success. Are there exceptions? Yes, plenty of them. But that doesn’t mean that there is no impact for majority of people.

Yes. A child's environment (social stability, economic, opportunity, attitudes towards education) is key for how well-prepared s/he is for college work (particularly for someone aiming for an academic position). Because of their limited opportunities before college, they have to work much harder in their major as well as in electives courses.

It's far from heart-breaking to hear the privileged grumble about such successes. In the system as it exists, only the extremely talented from poor, or racist, or rural environments stand a chance.

> You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and

It's worse than that. You're probably locked in a broken family with bad parent(s). When your parent(s) don't care about your education because they are uneducated themselves, are poor role models (addicts, etc.), THAT sets you up for the failure fast track.

No amount of money going to schools and teachers can fix that at scale unless you basically make the school a boarding school and replace the parents with mentors and role models at said boarding school.

This mathematician is not stupid. I would be inclined to believe he understands statistics/anecdotes/academia better than you reading this right now.

We only get a small glimpse into the intricacies of his world view and life, and this is what he has chosen to share. This is the story he is telling.

Ask yourself why someone in this position would tell this story based on years of lived experience. Do you believe him? Or do you believe keyboard warriors in some of the comments under this article diminishing his perspective with "but what about"-ism and the like?

I am black and studied math in school. The 'leaky pipeline' exists to some extent. Racist people exist even if you, reading this, are not racist.

Also by definition, judgement biases underlying racism are common across people. There's no more racism in whites or republicans, rationalization is different. Splitting the world in racist and no racist is simplistic and poor argumentation.

> by definition judgement[sic] biases underlying racism are common across people

0) We never agreed on the definition of "judgment biases", so please do not use the phrase "by definition". Your definition differs from mine.

I just want to support your comment -- I've known "this mathematician" (Edray Goins) personally for two decades, work on similar mathematics to him, and I wrote research letters supporting his tenure and promotion at Purdue. He is definitely NOT stupid, his research is extremely interesting, and his ability to get undergraduates involved in research level mathematics is outstanding. People do racist things, and this is overall very self-destructive for our communities; it helps very much that people like Edray have a voice.

May I ask you a question?

Not for the sake of argument or anything - I'm genuinely curious.

Yes, racist people exist. No doubt here. As do exist many other nasties: dishonest salesmen, stupid teachers, dumb police officers, incompetent doctors - you name it. They make the headlines, but I firmly believe there's not that many of them and most of people are fully adequate and reasonable.

From the article it sounds like there's a full faculty of racist bigots who see maintaining white supremacy as their primary goal. He's universally hated just for the color of his skin and there are few to no people who treat him as equal.

Is it really that bad?

There is no place in this NYT profile where Goins makes any claim about a "full faculty of racist bigots who see maintaining white supremacy as their primary goal", so that's not a reasonable question to ask.

Looks like you've dismissed my question on technicality.

I have to admit this is not exactly the answer I was looking for.

Not that it matters, but just because my nerd brain won't let this go until I type this out: refuting the core premise of your question isn't a "technicality". The correct answer to "is it really that bad", in this case, is "NaN fssst bzzrt pop!"

Most racism is not that overt, or even conscious. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if most people who behaved in a racist manner didn't view themselves as racist in the slightest.

I don't doubt that there absolutely exists prejudices in this case but I also wonder how many will also be created by one self in that situation just because how the human mind works.

I used to have quite a lot of acne and it really got to my head. It of course did affect how people treated me, especially girls, because acne is not very attractive however after a while I probably read into things way more than I should. That people who were treating me the way they normally would or just happened to treat me badly because they had a bad day did treat me that way because of my acne.

Being the lone black guy in a research institution in a country like the US with that kind of history must be easy to start falling down that hole. Especially if there also exists people who are prejudiced or racist and expresses that as well.

So you believe your experience with acne could be a lot like people experiencing racism?

I cannot believe you got downvoted into grey text already despite how obviously terrible this person's comparison is. Not to mention the insinuation that the experience of racism may just be the spotlight effect. Literally the most general and ubiquitous claim you see made whenever topics around racial experience come up.

I feel like your comment is disingenuous. He's saying that we all feel slighted, and perhaps cases where minorities feel slighted, is just that.

A case mentioned from the article that gave me this vibe:

> “A couple of them were at a board writing something,” he recalled. “I went over and asked, ‘What are you guys working on?’”

> “We’re too far in to catch you up,” he said he was told.

I know personally, I used to feel very "in tune" to how people perceived me. I read a book on body language when I was younger, and would constantly analyze how people moved ("head tilted, they think this is interesting", "arms crossed, they're defensive"), etc. It went further than that - analyzing language etc.

But, there were some cases were I was certain someone was being an asshole to me - but I learned I was wrong. Now I'm much more restrictive in how I pass judgement on someone.

I hope others give me that benefit, because I constantly find myself thinking of how something I said in conversation could be misunderstood, etc. Communication is hard.

Yep, and thinking about that some more, I have to wonder if he might be suffering from early/mild signs of schizophrenia. The assumption of racism is unjustified paranoia.

When schizophrenia starts, it is common to assume that people's actions are in some way plotting against you. A person does something for a reason unrelated to you (example: bumps you accidentally), and you assume it was intentional.

I recall that there is even an increased chance of illness for math experts. Famously, it hit John Nash.

So his interpretation of other people's actions may be a sign that he is not well.

I believe we all view the world through our own filter with our own interpretations and I believe that just because that we perceive something does not make it objectively right.

It does not matter if it is a big thing like racism or something small like how you look. It is also pretty disingenuous to immediately go to accusing me of saying that my experiences is as bad as racism, I never claimed that. Racism as a concept is big and it is obviously something that affects people deeply but it does not have a monopoly when it comes to suffering either.

One young white middle class boy in my school was bullied so badly that one night he hung himself from a soccer goal. I did not know him or the people who bullied him but I suspect that the things he was bullied for was not worse than racism as a whole but I also suspect what he experienced is far worse than any hurt any racism this mathematician has experienced.

The comment you're replying to is attempting to empathize with the subject of this NYT profile, and to build up a mental framework for why their lived experience might resonate with experiences of their own. You have to want the comment to be dismissive to read it that way.

This thread is full of skeptical comments claiming certainty that not only is there good reason there aren't many black mathematicians, but also that this particular mathematician probably got his position through tokenism. Those comments are worth the kind of snark you mustered. This one wasn't.

I don't think acne is a very good facsimile of racism, and the comment you're replying to didn't say that it was either, so you're doubly out of line here, by hammering on an argument they didn't even make.

There are probably a lot of ways in which the commenter's experience doesn't come close to fully capturing what it's like for a person of color to fight one's way through the ranks of a profession that is overwhelmingly "white". It'd be useful to hear some of those ways! That would have been a productive response.

The thing with prejudice is nobody will ever admit to being prejudiced. All you can do is piece it together. Sometimes your working hypothesis is that it's just noise, other times it's prejudice.

I brought in a woman to work on a project once, and it was awful.

Despite her doing objectively better work than what was available before, my partners decided everything she did needed criticism. Never anything substantial, just pretend criticism meant to look like they knew what they were talking about. And one of them wanted veto on all the work, despite knowing very little about it.

They questioned whether she'd have been on the project if she didn't know me, which is pretty out there given she did this for a living for some very well known firms.

Then they called her something offensive in front of her, and when I called them out on it, they pretended it was a joke intended to make her feel like part of the team.

Can you ever conclude what people's true motivations are? Not really. Could someone genuinely have felt that some person's work was substandard, they didn't get the job legitimately, and could they screw up some office banter? Sure.

It took me a long time to think this through, but in the end it misogyny seemed to be the only answer. We'd worked with plenty of incompetents before without saying much, and hired plenty of people (all guys) through the friends network. We'd never had anyone get bullied like that in the office, though.

Story got a whole lot worse later, but that's for another time.

When I was in primary school in Canada, I was able to get mostly good grades without really trying. I admit I was a little lazy, and my laziness would result in the occasional bad grade.

What I remember is that I would always be scolded by my teachers for not doing well. A few of my friends, however, who were black would never be scolded for not doing well at school.

The point I'm trying to get across is that racism can be quite subtle and baked into things we don't even realize, like the expectations we have of other people. I'm not sure how well I would've done in life if people implicitly expected me to fail.

I think subtle racism is a big problem. It can be felt without being verbally communicated to you, the actions from the perpetrators are frustrating and you feel helpless. The perpetrators would not be corrected because they said nothing wrong. Worst of all is that you don’t get a fair shake, and you might be dismissed at the slightest hint of incoherence and sometimes you feel like the perpetrators are waiting for you to fail.

> For the record, here is a small sample of other communities where black people are strongly underrepresented:

> Runners (3%). Bikers (6%). Furries (2%). Wall Street senior management (2%). Occupy Wall Street protesters (unknown but low, one source says 1.6% but likely an underestimate). BDSM (unknown but low) Tea Party members (1%). American Buddhists (~2%). Bird watchers (4%). Environmentalists (various but universally low). Wikipedia contributors (unknown but low). Atheists (2%). Vegetarian activists (maybe 1-5%). Yoga enthusiasts (unknown but low). College baseball players (5%). Swimmers (2%). Fanfiction readers (2%). Unitarian Universalists (1%).

> Can you see what all of these groups have in common?

> No. No you can’t. If there’s some hidden factor uniting Wall Street senior management and furries, it is way beyond any of our pay grades.

> But what I noticed when I looked up those numbers was that in every case, the people involved have come up with a pat explanation that sounds perfectly plausible right up until you compare it to any other group, at which point it bursts into flame

Excerpt from Black People Less Likely: https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/11/black-people-less-like...

I would bet that in almost every one of those categories, Americans of New England descent are over-represented compared to people of Christian Italian/German/Polish descent. (With the least money on the sporting ones.)

Furries (2%).Occupy Wall Street protesters (unknown but low, one source says 1.6% but likely an underestimate). BDSM (unknown but low). Environmentalists (various but universally low). Wikipedia contributors (unknown but low). Atheists (2%). Fanfiction readers (2%).

there are quite a few that don't really match...

Without specifics, I have to say my experince says your numbers are invented at best.

EDIT: Got rid of part of my post that had enough information in it that could be tied to people in real life.

--------

It doesn't help that West Lafayette is a very racist place in my experience. I'm white and a native speaker of American English. On my first day of teaching at Purdue I introduced myself to the class and a student asked, "Are you an American? Do you speak English?" At the time West Lafayette had a confusing road system for a small town. Lots of 5-way intersections and one way streets. I was late to a dental appointment and apologized to the dentist's secretary. I explained that I had a hard time figuring out how to get to the place. She responded, "Yeah, the road system here was designed by a drunk Indian." I'm certain living in Indiana exacerbated the situation.

It is also not helping that there actually is such a thing as "token X". A less discussed side effect of affirmative action.

I don't think that's the thing that's 'not helping', here.

There is such a thing as the "token gaijin" at Japanese companies - the foreigner who can show to visitors how international company this is. Generally very little influence or path of progress. Also just the knowledge of this phenomenon can cause self-doubt for the individual.

White people office workers Japan are of course not the same as black mathematicians in the U.S., but I don't believe that it's not contributing to the problem if it occurs.

I just don't think 'my prejudices are actually true' is the conclusion to draw from 'tokenism exists', that is all.

you and me don't, but many do. It is a fact that affirmative action undermines the claim of competence of minorities in the workplace. It also a problem to be addressed. Whether or not it is right to think that has little influence of the fact that many people reach that conclusion.

What prejudices did avip claim were confirmed by tokenism?

Justice Clarence Thomas would disagree.

https://www.newsweek.com/lithwick-what-clarence-thomas-and-p...

Ok, and?

I fail to see how either of your anecdotes constitute racism

> Yeah, the road system here was designed by a drunk Indian

What does including Indian add here? If the (alleged) drunk was white would the person have said, "drunk white guy"?

I'm assuming this is a genuine question on your part. I would suggest reading up on common stereotypes of the native peoples in the U.S. Native Americans did not design the road system in West Lafayette. Whites did. The person making the remark is in essence saying:

Yes the road system is really fucked up. It's so bad that I can't give a real explanation for it so I jokingly say a drunk Indian had to have done it because that's the only thing that can make sense.

For some reason I assumed that it was referring to subcontinent Indians, and was slightly confused because I don't consider it racist to point out that their road system is absolutely atrocious.

My first thought was that it was a non-sequitur, but that it involved subcontinent Indians. I find it ironic that people who are apparently calling out one kind of bigotry in this thread are then playing on stereotypes of what people who live in certain places are like.

As a nonwhite who actually has been racially bashed and who has seen people overcome bigotry through their basic humanity, I always want to warn everyone that the problem isn't people from a particular place, people of a particular ethnicity, or people grouped by any surface characteristic, chosen, indelible or in between. The problem is groupthink, and the dark emotions that can come about because of it.

The moment you start imputing thoughts, feelings, and emotions to people with scant evidence, you have taken a misstep. (1) You have succumbed to groupthink. If you would fight bigotry, it first behooves you to actively eliminate your own bigotry. It's then your duty not to fall into the very patterns you're supposed to fight.

(1) -- Also, if you start condemning people because you imagine you know what they are thinking and feeling, and you believe they are lying to you, then you set up a situation where no one can prove their innocence, and no one trusts anyone else anymore. We have historical accounts of such times and places. Often, such epistemological catastrophes accompany inter-ethnic and inter-sectarian violence and atrocities.

Native americans have high levels of alcoholism. The comment was referencing this as a contemptuous sterotype. A casual comment like that is a glimpse into widely held attitudes in the regional: the speaker felt comfortable saying it and assumed the listener wouldn't object.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_Native_Americans

The alleged drunk would never be white, that's the point. The punchline will always involve $DEROGATORY_MODIFIER $MINORITY. For instance, "drunk Indian"; if you grew up in IN, you'll tack on "but I repeat myself", because that's what passes for clever in IN. (I grew up there, I get to make fun.)

A former governor of MN once claimed that its capital city streets were designed by drunken Irishmen. He immediately realized that was a Bad Thing to say, but it was certainly an afterthought to his statement.

In the first one, a person made the argument that the sole black person in the department was there only because he was black. That's what "token black person" means.

The second recapitulates a common racial stereotype about native Americans.

Hope that helped!

I need to say that I am a bit unsure how to relate to the two possible interpretation of "token black person". On one side there are people that assume black people at prestigious jobs are black token on the other side there are people that explicitly set out to hire some black tokens; in the middle you would have the society and culture that allows it.

The first side is an easy case of racism in most cases, the second side seem more nuanced. In the GP case apparently the person thought of himself as a black token, that is for sure a bad situation... but I cannot wrap my head around "how" it is a bad situation and its implications.

You shouldn't be unsure. You weren't there, and the person who is relating their interpretation of the comment was.

I am sure that the fact that someone believes he is a "black token" is a problem, I am also sure that this could (almost) only happen in a place were there is quite some racism.

What I pointed out is that not all racism is the same; all of it is bad and all of it should stop, we agree on that, but as most human endeavour it is complex with complex motivation. If you and I want to stop it we should better think about how every situation can be different and how different type of racism require different solutions.

In my case above assuming incompetence and hiring minorities just to have better statistics are very different form of racism led by often different people, often with different motivation. If OP clarifies more I will trust that, but the wording itself was quite ambiguous to me

(also I have the impression some comments have moved around...)

I have no idea where you're trying to take this. I'm saying that it's not productive to argue over the subtext of a hypothetical conversation neither of us are a party to. At some point your argument is going to have to boil down to "no, that person relating that story is not being fully truthful". Ok, that's a coherent argument, but not one I'm interested in having with you.

I need to say I am a bit confused, I maybe replied in the wrong place.

I meant to reply to a comment that only provided as an information that somebody believed to be a token black hire. To this my point was that multiple non trivial interpretation were possible.

Now I realize I commented directly on the article so that I was in practice casting doubt on the content. This was a mistake, to be clear I trust the Edray Goins version of his own story.

A bit late to reply, but I feel it is an important distinction.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19193568.

why? I don't mind being downvoted, and I enjoy reading the responses. Is it infringing on peoples' safe spaces?

Because if you toss off a low-information provocation in an inflammatory thread, that's trolling whether you meant to or not. (But indulging in an in-your-face phrase like "safe spaces" makes me think that maybe you did mean to.)

The result tends to be flamewar. Flamewars are equal parts dumb and predictable. Also, we're trying for this place not to turn into scorched earth.

really did not intend to troll in the first place - maybe a little in the second. I find the sensitivity level here a bit shocking. thanks for the response though - I'll take the feedback and add supporting info in the future.

Appreciated!

This is an attempt to squash meaningful discussion. The right-wing bias of HN moderators is readily apparent, as usual.

I always struggle to see people victim of racism identify themselve only through their race.

. “I have been the only one in most of the universities I’ve been to — the only student or faculty in the mathematics department.”

“To say that I feel isolated,”

I have always been different looking than other people around me and never identified myself through my race but through my interests and undertakings in life. I find it sad that even people with PhDs think all people of the same race are the same and feel isolated when they re not around same race people while for me being a mathematician surrounded by mathematicians should be the only thing that matters.

But this is not necessarily a matter of choice. If everyone else thinks race is a thing, you need to at least think about it, regardless of whether you believe in it too. I'd like to think the way you do ("my interests and undertakings in life"), and mostly I do, but if I find myself in a society where everyone has a label, I need to consider my label. To the point where it might make sense for me to have others with that label near me.

As an Asian in math I suffer from racism as well.

See I was voted down. Racism.

Please don't break the site guidelines by going on about downvoting.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

The problem with your earlier comment is that it was unsubstantive. Grand claims in unsubstantive comments on inflammatory topics are particularly problematic.

At this time, only 4 hours old and 93 points, but is buried as #257 on the 9th page. What gives?

The moderators have a long-standing bias towards the political right. A black man with a PhD in Mathematics is not allowed to speak out about systemic racism on Hacker News.

Forgive me for sharing a sample of my collection:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15032682

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15585780

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15546533

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16134205

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17197581

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18664482

https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=slamdance

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13110004

I know how obvious it seems that the bias is against you, but that's mostly because you (i.e. any of us) are 1000x more likely to notice cases you dislike or disagree with.

Your handling of this comment section was irresponsible. If you cannot handle this responsibility you should ban submissions and comments dealing with any and all social issues and allow only technical discussion. You have allowed a hateful element to silence a voice that spoke truth to power by making simple observations about how mathematicians handle race over a course of decades. The moderation of this submission was unreasonable and discompassionate.

Edit: To my brigader bot, I am responding directly to a moderator. I want him to read this comment. Flagging it immediately after I post is actually helpful. Downvoting it only helps to prove my point.

To be honest I'm having a hard time orienting to your complaint here. The only thing I remember about the thread is banning someone who commented from (I think?) the opposite side to yours, so if anything I'd expect the bias accusation to run the other way.

If you think we made a mistake in the thread, it'd be more helpful to post (or email us) a link and point out the specific mistake. Rote denunciations don't help us correct anything, and general accusations like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19195885 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19194629 don't add information, because you're simply not working with an accurate picture of what we do. I understand how that happens, but there isn't much in it I can learn from.

My complaint from the beginning was that you stifled conversation by detaching this thread and because every comment is flagged and downvoted automatically you have allowed those who are afraid of this type of discussion to sabotage any submission they dislike. You caved to the brigade instead of acting as a responsible moderator. The ranking algorithm and the moderation policies are too crude for this type of submission. It would be more responsible to disallow them entirely.

What you say about the comments is clearly not the case, as anyone can see by looking at the thread.

I'm not sure what you mean by detaching the thread.

From the FAQ:

> "How are stories ranked?"

> "The basic algorithm divides points by a power of the time since a story was submitted. Comments in threads are ranked the same way."

> "Other factors affecting rank include user flags, anti-abuse software, software which demotes overheated discussions, and moderator intervention."

From what I've seen, having so many more comments than points is one of the triggers for the "overheated discussions". Probably not the only factor, but probably a significant one.

But aren't we all a minority in some way?

Looking at the folks in my office, many of us are not native speakers of English. The guy sitting next to me is a native speaker, but he's black. The guy next to him is a white native speaker, but he's disabled and has to work from home most of the time. Another guy "ticks all the marks", but he's extremely shy. And so on and so forth.

Look at yourself, at your parents carefully and you'll realize you are a minority in one way or another.

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