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Comment by sokoloff | Hacker News Reader

A friend was recently complaining about having to buy a new $2000 fridge, how his old one only lasted 8 years, and how everything is junk nowadays. He described the symptoms to me [gradual loss of cooling capability, soft ice cream, then melting ice cubes] and I told him I solved the same problem 2 years ago and his was almost surely a broken defrost heater leading to a totally iced up [therefore no airflow] cooling unit, that troubleshooting would take him 15 minutes to confirm, and if that was it, it was a $20 90-minute repair (most of which is waiting for the freezer to defrost).

He looked at me like I had 3 heads to even consider a fridge repair and a week or so later sent me a pic of his new, $2000 fridge in place. I tried.

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On the other hand, I had a not-too-old fridge with a broken ice maker, which I tried to repair. The replaceable part was "the whole ice maker", which was out of production and not available anywhere. With some knowledge of electronics and 3d printing, I could probably get it working again, but at the cost of multiple hours of my free time, with no guarantee of success. The best intentions can't always defeat planned obsolescence.

You can try eBay.

I was quoted 600 for a whole system part of a car (dubcomponent wasn’t sold separately), the actual necessary used sub-part was 50 on eBay.

It does depend on the car part. There are a lot of low quality fakes on ebay, which won't either work, or will break quickly, and finding information with which to sort through which are good and which are not is a task in itself.

The consequences can be even more serious if you're looking for aircraft parts. A few years ago there was a discussion about Chinese made crankshafts for Corvairs on HackerNews, covering this exact issue: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18788861.

Fixing household white goods where a failure could result in a bad load of laundry or burnt toast is very different from aviation where utmost care must be taken with regard to maintenance, overhauling and repairs.

Even in cars, you gotta figure, is the part critical? (brakes, steering) or non critical (wipers, seats, heating/ac, etc).

For sure. I was pointing it out more for interest's sake than as a serious point of comparison for fixing your washing machine. Still, even there I'd probably be relatively careful, because flooding your kitchen isn't so much fun (bitter experience speaking there, although fortunately the kitchen is at ground level and has a concrete floor under the lino so no serious damage done).

> Fixing household white goods where a failure could result in a bad load of laundry or burnt toast

Those aren't the only failure modes to consider for washers, dryers, and toasters. Flooding (for the first) and fire (for the other two) are concerns.

You’re right that there is a possibility of somewhat disastrous results, but in my experience it’s not the motor or high voltage electrical that goes out but a plastic part, an on-off switchbor or a sensor.

Yes be careful, you could get an electric shock photograph before you take things apart and read instructions before putting things back together.

Yeah, Ebay is great for this. I was able to replace the mainboard on an older LCD TV I was gifted years ago. $50 for a used one, exactly matching model#. 15 minute replacement job, 0 wasted televisions.

I've had excellent luck with several of the online repair parts vendors. I hesitate to recommend any individual one as I've only ordered about once per year, not enough to generate a meaningful recommendation and I've gotten what I've ordered from every one of the ones I've used.

Two notes on ice makers specifically: 1. There is a much smaller number of models of ice makers than refrigerators. (One model of ice maker crosses over to many fridges, though you may need to unplug and move the fridge-specific wiring harness over to the new ice maker.) Many times it's an extra half hour of googling to find the generic ice maker part number and then chase that down. 2. Some ice makers that are not OEM are painted to look non-stick and that paint will start flaking off into your ice in about 2-3 years of use (disgusting). This is a case where I'd rather take a used OE part over a new part of unknown provenance, even though they are a high failure part.

That's good to know, I still have the fridge and wouldn't mind getting the ice maker fixed eventually. I'll have to try to expand my search.

I'd just buy a few ice cube trays.

This person gets it.

Agreed.

I'm loving the 2 inch ice cube tray from Tovolo. Liked it so much I bought a second, but sadly amazon sold me a knock off, thin sides and very jiggly. So, get one with thick sides, and I checked amazon, there are way more vendors now for 2 inch ice cube trays with more cube slots.

this!

It's almost my story as well.

My microwave I had for 8 years (and I got it second hand) stopped working. A quick inspection + watching a couple of YouTube videos revealed that a plastic latch inside the door got broken.

It would have been very easy to replace it if only it was still being sold. Extensive search on the internet showed it was not :( :( :(

If only I had some time (well a LOT of time) to reverse engineer the existing latch and 3D-print a new one... But I did not.

So, I had to put the microwave outside on my curb. I attached a note to it saying it works well if the latch is fixed and also attached the broken latch.

I was happy to see it was gone in a few hours. I live in a city (Montreal, Canada) so I guess it helped my microwave to not be wasted.

I wish 3D-printing technologies - or more precisely, a technology that helps to create 3D specs out of an existing object - would be more advanced. Well, I did not do an extensive search about it so I may be well mistaken :)

It doesn’t take a lot of time though...

The latch for my vacuum clean bin broke. I fished it out (10m), modelled a replacement in FreeCAD (2hr, I had to learn how to use FreeCAD since I’d never used it before), and printed a replacement (40m print time) - and now I don’t have to buy a new vacuum cleaner.

Similar story for my ironing board: A nylon runner wheel cracked in half, breaking the folding mechanism. Modeling a replacement in CAD (I used fusion 360), 3D printed it, little drilling to get the axle to fit, and the ironing board was back working same day. It felt great to fix a problem like that - there’s something very techno-utopian about it, like you’re living the dream of a Wired article from 1997 predicting a future where we will all effect household repairs by replicating spare parts.

But that’s happened once in the three years I’ve owned a 3D printer. Simple mechanical part failures just don’t seem to happen that often.

2h still feels a bit too much, though I thought it would take longer. Well I guess I will try the next time...

I guess it depends how to value your time. For me a couple of hours to avoid paying £400+ for a decent cordless vacuum seems worth it.

I’ve actually fixed this vacuum cleaner numerous times! Not always with 3D printer parts though.

And it can be fun to fix something. I felt very rewarded after I replaced our kitchen machines worn out gears, by designing and printing out new identical ones.

It depends, are you watching TV? If you get like 30 hours of practice at cad it's almost like doodling.

I often find it much faster for me to "widdle" small parts using my "art" skills. Just get a piece of plastic or metal and a dremal and carve it. In 30 min you will have a latch... making a 3d printing model takes forrrrrevvverrr

I think you mean ‘whittle’.

One advantage of 3D printers is that the part you need might already be designed, you can find all sorts of things on thingiverse. Once the design exists any number of people can use it.

Good suggestion, I did not think of search 3D printing designs. The model of my microwave is pretty common. Oh well.

https://www.youmagine.com/ is another one to check on

I’m finding Gorilla Glue works wonders for plastic parts broken from bending or shearing forces. I’ve had a few things around the house that have broken and led me to think I should 3D print replacements. I glue them to buy a few days or weeks and the glue ends up bonding so well that I have yet to print replacements yet.

Another good technique for hard plastic is plastic welding, especially for clean snaps. Basically using a soldering iron to melt the plastic back together. Seems to be as strong as before. Plenty of good YouTube videos showing the technique.

For plastics, epoxy resin makes for a good adhesive and can even be stronger than the original material.

I recently bought a lathe and a mill, and while that certainly isn't an option for everyone, I've found them to be quite useful for repairing random things around the house. I've got about $2,500 in the equipment and another $500 or so in tooling, but in the three months or so I've been good enough with them to make things I want, I've probably saved $500 in miscellaneous repairs.

I guess my point is "don't discount traditional processes". Someone good with a razor and file could make a new plastic latch from an old cutting board faster than someone with a 3D printer could print the part, much less design, print, and verify.

For equipment like that which you only use occasionally, they'll often have one at your local hackerspace, along with friendly people who can show you how to use it.

Or let you keep yours there where more people can get use out of it and it isn't taking up space in your garage.

My local library has a nice 3D printer. An Ultimaker.

It takes me about 30 minutes to cad up most parts and I can do it while watching TV. It just takes a bit of practice. You likely didn't used to be able to whip up a simple web scraper in 10 minutes but can do it now.

You can try sculpy or similar things next time too to make plastic parts. There are several materials that are basically play-dough that hard set to plastic like materials.

> broken ice maker

Don't buy a fridge with an ice maker.

The ice maker is by far the least reliable portion of a refrigerator.

Ice cube trays don't break down and need repair.

Frustrating for me to hear - I was looking forward to getting a new fridge with an ice maker. Carrying trays of ice in a wheelchair (especially in liquid form from the sink back to the freezer) is an interesting, if damp challenge.

I imagine carrying ice trays on a wheelchair should be easier than on legs. Instead, I just carry water in container and fill the ice tray on the fridge shelf.

I'd recommend something like this: https://www.amazon.com/OXO-Grips-No-Spill-Silicone-White/dp/... The ice "slots" get completely sealed with the silicone, and I have stuck it in on it's side and it didn't leak at all.

Thank you. I've imported other OXO stuff from the US before, I'll grab one to try it out.

Similarly resuscitated a washing machine twice with 10 and $20 dollar parts. Hardest thing was getting sheet metal back in place as it tends to contort and warp.

YouTube and specialized forums are very helpful in pinning the issue and parts.

Even, some years years back (10 or so?) when buying a woolen pullover you’d get a bit of mending yarn wrapped around cardboard bobbins with the exact same color as your sweater.

Nowadays they’re not included, at least where I buy.

YouTube is a modern marvel. If you can use YouTube and can get your hands on the right tools you can fix almost anything.

Strong agree. YouTube creates so much value around repairs. I can fix all sorts of things with my pool thanks to YouTube. And everyone I know has learned tiny practical skills of one sort or another from there.

I followed a youtube to take out an lcd panel from a laptop to replace. The panel is cracked in the corner and the whole picture if fuzzy. It was easy enough and that then gave me the confidence to order a new one, which is in the mail as I speak. Cost is circa 15% of the new laptop price.

To add to the anecdotes, I wanted to add a chip of ram to my laptop but was very uncomfortable with the amount of pressure that was required to take off one of the bottom edges. Watching a video of someone doing it without damaging the device gave me the confidence to go ahead.

It's possible this problem was an excuse that allowed him to mentally justify the <fancy new fridge> he really wanted. The last thing he wanted to hear is an easy fix.

It's also interesting to note changes in efficiency for things like refrigerators. I suspect at 8 years repair might be more environmentally sound, but any older... refrigerators today aren't indeed built like they were 20 years ago. They use far less energy.

I put an IoT sensor node on my fridge and freezer to catch when our shitty samsung fridge started losing cooling. ( https://hackaday.io/project/12985-multisite-homeofficehacker... )

I found that I had to chip ice out the base back panel of the fridge, where it had significant ice accumulation. No way in hell I'm treating something we paid 1.5k$ for and 'throwing it away'.

I still maintain there's 4 R's: Repair, Reduce, Reuse, and eventually Recycle.

For the less hack-inclined, I highly recommend looking at the https://SensorPush.com devices after researching a bunch of wireless remote thermometer options (including a couple marketed for cigar humidors). Bluetooth to (multiple) phones, replaceable battery that should last ~1 year, available Bluetooth-Wifi gateway to let you set up a whole monitoring system, $50.

For the Samsung fridge getting ice buildup, there are relatively few causes and likely the simplest is the same defrost timer mine had issues with. I like https://repairclinic.com for appliance parts, though they don't have any of the 3 models of Samsung defrost timers in stock right now.

Even simpler than the defrost heater, in an awful lot of fridges there's a little mechanical timer circuit that turns the heater on and off periodically. Those timers are full of plastic gears and can die, but while you wait for a new one there's likely an opening where you can use a flathead screwdriver to cycle around and manually trigger a defrost cycle.

Just remember to set a timer and turn that back off after 20 minutes or so, because the same nonfunctional timer that starts it turns it off as well.

Did he have to drop $2000 in cash to buy it, or did he finance it (either directly or indirectly)? He may have said "Huh, $65/month; I can afford that!"

I'm not picking on your friend specifically, just pointing out one factor that can reduce the immediate friction of people buying new stuff, instead of trying to fix the old.

He looked at me like I had 3 heads to even consider a fridge repair

People look at me funny when I say "corporate propaganda", but in case you needed evidence that corporate propaganada is a real thing, here it is.

Even better, I bet if you ask person if they cleaned the coils, they'd have no idea what you were talking about

This fixed mine. A 5 dollar tool.

I bet your friend recycles plastic bags to help save the environment.

Something about this sounds like a really good burn. It's kind of funny. What do you even mean by it?

The idea is that one would simultaneously studiously separate and recycle plastic bags (at the cost of hours of their time over a period of a decade) to prevent a few pounds of plastic from entering a landfill while not being willing to use a Phillips screwdriver and a hair dryer for 45-90 minutes to save $1950 and 250 pounds of refrigerator from entering a landfill.

There might even be more mass of just polystyrene insulation in the fridge he's just trashed than the mass of plastics he keeps out of the landfill. There is certainly more overall plastic in there.

It varies on jurisdiction, but the depth of recycling can be a lot better for electronics and appliances. In Europe an old fridge would typically not go to the landfill but to reprocessing facility first, stripped into metals, plastics and "electronic waste".

According to the site linked below, the average American produces about 100 lbs of plastic waste a year:

https://www.titlemax.com/discovery-center/lifestyle/trash-on...

To my mind, that is a significant amount of waste, and definitely worth chasing.

* Durable Plastics: 72.9 lbs

* Nodurable Plastics: 28 lbs

* Plastic Bottles and Jars: 17.7

There is more, but this gives a sense of the statistics they quote on their site. These do not seem unreasonable to me, and they suggest that recycling plastics would save a refrigerator or two in weight per household per year, depending a bit on the size of the household.

They're implying that the friend is "penny-wise and pound-foolish", by making a large effort to recycle small bits of plastic, while making no effort to avoid wasting lots of plastic/steel/coolant/electronics/motors etc.

That his friend does a token BS gesture towards being 'environmentally friendly" while participating in the same needless consumerism attitude that's responsible for 99% of the cost on the environment.

The problem with plasic bags isn’t so much that they go to landfills, but rather that they end up going into the wider environment where they pose significant dangers to many kinds of wildlife.

I take your point: the trashed refrigerator may be a heavier environmental cost than the plastic bags.

It is best if we both recycle and fix the refrigerator. But doing either is better than doing nothing. In other words, arguing that one good is more effective than another good doesn't mean that it isn't admirable to do only the smaller good.

Many of us up here on Hacker News are good at fixing things. But some of us might be less skilled in other areas, such as organizing political campaigns or working in the medical field. It's easy to criticize someone for not doing something we find easy, but it is harder to see how they might be skilled in areas where we struggle.

>It is best if we both recycle and fix the refrigerator.

It might just be marginally better.

If "fixing the refrigerator" (and other such items in our lives, cars, etc) yields 100 e (e = a made-up token measure of environmental benefit) and not using plastic bags for a decade yields 1 e, then it's almost irrelevant.

I think abstractly in these terms too, probably too much so. Whenever my wife or I purchase something or throw it away, I ask myself how much we just debited from the earth. I wonder how one would actually go about defining this measure?

One thing is that companies don't help at all at this -- and they wont unless they are forced to (the same way companies were forced to add calorie and nutrition breakdowns).

I'd like to see a "CO2/water/etc cost" sticker

In most places I’ve lived in the US it’s takes a lot of work to get an old appliance to a landfill and out of the hands of someone who would repair or recycle it. Somebody buying a $2000 fridge probably had the old one taken away and somebody involved in that process would repair and resell it.

I think the concern is that I might get a significant warm fuzzy feeling from my actions that is disproportionate to the significance of my actual impact on the environment. Presumably (hopefully) my goal is to actually have a positive impact on the environment rather than just feel good by reusing a few plastic bags per month.

I replaced a broken cooling fan in my girlfriend's fridge. Ordered the new part but the connecter was wrong. So I cut the connectors off and spliced the old to the new and voila! Whole thing cost me $11. Quite empowering.

I talked with my GF about this. She said that "My boyfriend fixed my fridge the other day" is the ultimate boast nowadays.

Recently, on the nature strip outside my place, someone dumped what was essentially a brand new brushed stainless fridge. Why I new it was almost new was that it was lying on its back and I could look into the compressor compartment at the bottom and it was clean—totally pristine! (Just about everyone knows that refrigerators get filthy down there real quick).

Seems people were moving out and it was too much trouble to take it with them. Nevertheless, it was there for some weeks before someone collected it (I don't have room or I would have taken it pronto).

Seems many have too much money these days.

That’s very irresponsible of them. A kid could have gotten stuck in there and died.

You have a point. Our local council requests that fridges left for collection have their doors taken off.

Absolutely!

Not in a normal fridge.

There's probably a video on youtube for whatever you need to fix.

I would only recommend people stay away from microwaves.

I was about to buy a new fridge but held off due to a lot of complaints about pieces of ice falling down the back section of samsung and other refrigerators. I've got a shitty 90s ge fridge, that has a wierd defrost drain. Basically the issue is it freezes down the drain line. A bunch of googling and one dude had a gem, take a piece of 8 ga copper wire, hang it over the defrost coils, and run it down the drain, copper conducts heat amazingly. Hasn't been a issue for 5 years since.

Many people want to buy new stuff just for the sake of it. A breakdown is just the excuse they need to do it. By the time you talked to him his wife had probably already picked out the new one.

My fridge leaks water into the vegetables, freezes where it shouldn't, and gives a loud thuuunk when the cycle ends. I disconnected the water line from the ice maker long time ago, so water must be condensation. I wonder what it might be.

Your fridge also makes water from its auto-defrost cycle (often 15 minutes every 12 or 24 hours). This will typically defrost behind the freezer compartment, drain down to a catch tray that drains to a tray underneath the fridge [where it will then evaporate back into the kitchen]. If that drain line is plugged or frozen, it could leak somewhere else. If the defrost has failed, you can get uneven (and eventually little/no) cooling.

thanks!

That is surprisingly useful information to acquire while browsing HN. Thanks!

Probably the cooling fan not running. The cold air doesn't circulate so the drain line freezes up and overflows into the refrigerator. It's not hard to replace yourself or a repair guy can probably do it for around $200 parts and labor.

thanks!

I had this exact problem on mine. I took a panel off from back of inside freezer compartment, and there was a solid block of ice below coils. I didnt own a hairdryer, so used a turkey baster and hot water to melt it. Spray hot water in, wait 30 sec, suck it back out, get fresh hot water, repeat till you get drainage.

This was your queue to buy the "broken" fridge off him for I'll-take-it-off-your-hands-probably-free, fix it and sell it for $$$.

s/queue/cue/ :)

If fridges cost 2000, there should be some money in the repair business.

Even professional house cleaners could do some checks as add on sales.

I had an analogous issue with a washing machine. One problem is I don't have real estate to open and (try to) fix it.

If you were confident about the solution, you could have offered to do it for a fee or ask him to gift it to you. That could have been an easy sale.

Also, a lot of people complain to generate conversation, not for the 2nd opinion they get.

>Also, a lot of people complain to generate conversation, not for the 2nd opinion they get.

Doesn't make his friend look any better...

I've a standing offer out to friends of mine. They can drive their car over to my place (pre-arranged, of course) and we'll change their brakes together and all they have to pay is the cost of the parts (which is usually much less than they expect).

A few of my mechanically inclined but lacking confidence friends and a few of my other broke as a joke friends have taken me up on it over the years. Most can't believe how cheap, fast, and easy to do/hard to screw up it is. Very few repeat "customers" though. :(

In the fridge case, it turns out he had already ordered one for delivery in a few days and had already mentally parted with the money, so didn't want to fix his and call to cancel the order...

I'd expect "few repeat customers" to be a good thing - after pairing on DIY repair the one time, they have the confidence to do it on their own the next time.

The ones that I know well, including a mechanical engineer, are back to dealerships (ack!) or independent mechanics.

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