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Comment by gnulinux | Hacker News Reader

This resonates with me. I love my work, I really like what I do, I think it's mentally challenging, interesting, and important for our world and civilization and I believe I'm compensated well enough. But it's tiring ok? And all I can ever do on weekends is lying on my bed watching netflix. I work 9 to 6 and work out intensely for 2 hours every week day. By the time it's saturday I'm both physically and mentally exhaust. I cannot do anything other than sleeping. Of course this is not a good situation for various reasons: no friends, no relationships, no hobbies. Just work, gym, and recovering from those two. I like this for a lot of reasons (which is why I do it) but I acknowledge that my life is also pathetic. I wouldn't be surprised if I died alone.

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First off, it seems as though your gym schedule is very intense and easing on that may help especially the physical aspect of what you’re going through.

Secondly, I strongly recommend, if you don’t already, to just maybe see a therapist? It seems like you’ve got some cool things going on and like you could be a cool person, and sometimes it’s tough to reach out. I had to myself recently.

Seriously. If they're hitting the gym with any sort of intensity, 2 hours a day is going to leave you destroyed on the weekends. 3-4 days a week is plenty. Your body needs to rebuild.

2 hours/day at 100% intensity is a lot, but I have found doing something physical everyday to be key to mental health, sleeping better, and general well being. Very people go 100% even when they go to the gym 3x/week, so I don't want others reading this thinking that is all they need.

In fact, people will be surprised what the body can do (go read up on ultra-marathoners, etc...). Few regular gym goers are even close to needing rest days, and instead use it as an excuse not to go.

My gym is filled with people half-assing it(not even half really), sitting on equipment playing with their phones, or just generally doing it wrong. Those people aren't going to get the message no matter what. You either want it or you don't. I mean want it. "Want" is a funny word. My ex "wanted" everything but never put any effort into anything. That's not "want". "Want" is a desire strong enough to drive actions. If you don't have that, nothing can help you.

I totally get you about the ultra marathoners. What I don't see is those people using their skills to benefit anything else in their lives. Sure, it's amazing to see someone, especially someone in their 50s or 60s, run 300+ miles. It's also sad to see them devote so much of their time to training and fueling that they have nothing left for anything else in their lives. I used to do 30-60 miles of fast walking in a week. Even at that level my job and social life took a hit.

I think for anyone who is serious about hitting the recommended levels of fitness and exercise, a few hours a week, spread out into 3-4 visits, is more than enough. You should probably try to get some low intensity exercise every day, like walking and simple yoga, while maintaining good posture. If you do that, you'll stay fit, increase the chances of living a long life, and have enough time and energy left over for the important things in life.

You are seriously looking down on the folks with their phones? How else are folks supposed to overcome the absolute drudgery and hate they have for the activity they are doing? I'd argue these folks are more motivated than the folks like you: Regardless for their hate for the activity, they are still doing it.

It is the same reason I have headphones with some sort of entertainment when I walk or use treadmills. The same reason my spouse reads while on the stationary bike. These activities are an absolutely dreadful way to spend time. Especially when one could be home making artwork or music or devoting time to cooking something creative or even watching silly videos.

> How else are folks supposed to overcome the absolute drudgery and hate they have for the activity they are doing?

By trying some other activity instead of wasting their time and other people's.

So, someone being active on a stationary bicycle while reading is wasting someone else's time somehow?

I've never found an enjoyable workout activity. The closest I've come to it being bearable is walking as transportation - and sometimes that leads me to staying home rather than do social things. It is horrible without headphones and horrible in the rain or snow.

All of these "workouts" and "exercise" have mind-numbing boredom as a side dish.

You're doing it wrong then.

Or perhaps I simply do not find any joy in such activities. Just because you find some enjoyment here doesn't mean that others do.

You need to find some type of exercise you like to do. You mention that you like creative activities. Many studies show creativity spikes during and after physical activity. At worst, look at the end goal of being healthy physically and mentally and derive joy from exercising.

For me, exercising is like breathing. It is not about liking/disliking, it's about doing because it is how the body works.

Good for you. Some people hate doing it, but know they should. So whatever helps them get through it don't knock it.

Exactly this.

I've never, ever found something I enjoy doing for extended periods of time. There is even less out there that you can do if you happen to be poor.

I've never, ever found an exercise I like doing. Never. None of that stuff actually motivates me to the point of joy. It merely means I'll do the drudgery a bit longer. The end goal is even more laughable since I'm going through tests for MS right now - it is very likely that I'm doing the stuff for nothing.

The creative stuff is simply someone being bored doing a repetitive. It is the same reason folks get creative in the shower or while driving. You can also learn things to be more creative. There may be a slight edge to the extra blood flow, but I'm not sure that is backed scientifically like the boredom is.

Face it, some people simply hate this sort of thing.

I assume GP is referring to people who arent actively working out, but floating around the gym mostly playing on their phones, checking social. As though time spent in the gym was the point rather than the exercise itself.

Yeah this. I see people camped on machines, just sitting there on their phones. They're not resting between sets. Just sitting there. Yesterday it was a guy pacing in front of the dumbbell rack, talking loud enough to hear over my headphones, not exercising at all.

Working out for 40 minute high intensity sessions (making every minute count) 3 times a week is enough to become buff as hell.

You need adequate resting time as well.

The rule is if it doesn't ache for a couple days after, you need to go harder/heavier.

Sounds like he's not making the most of his workouts.

You can actually do a full body workout with just 5 compound exercises: https://stronglifts.com/5x5/ and believe me when I say that after doing just 5 sets of 5 reps at your max of a deadlift you will be tired as hell.

> The rule is if it doesn't ache for a couple days after, you need to go harder/heavier.

That's not a good rule. Once you've past the first few months of resistance training, not being sore after a workout is not an indication that you didn't work out hard enough. It's very possible to work hard and have little to no soreness while making reliable strength gains.

In general you really want to get to place where you're working out more days per week, for a smaller amount of time each session (with a targeted muscle group). There shouldn't be much soreness at all unless you've over-exerting yourself.

It's an extremely common misconception that you need to work yourself to soreness to facilitate muscle breakdown and repair. But that's actually inefficient. The only reason it's even so common in people new to training is because they tend to workout with someone who is significantly more advanced (or enthusiastic) than they are.

The rule is if it doesn't ache for a couple days after, you need to go harder/heavier.

Which is why I'll never, ever actually work out. Seriously, not only do I hate the time spent getting most activity, but now you are telling me I'm supposed to hurt for days afterwards? No, thank you. Not without being under the direct supervision of medical professionals who tell me I really need this sort of pain.

Most natural body builders will never become "buff as hell". In 20 years of body building ive known 1 natural guy who had the genes to become really well built without juice.

Most people who look 'buff' are really just lean. A decent diet and some IF and many people can look buff.

> 3 times a week is enough to become buff as hell.

True. I wasn't talking about only being buff. I view working out as something I do to be mentally and physically healthy for life. I think some physical activity every day is key for physical and mental well being.

> The rule is if it doesn't ache for a couple days after, you need to go harder/heavier.

I disagree here. I've done many programs (used the 5x5 you mentioned for years to max out at a #525 deadlift), and rarely get sore from a weight workout. The only time I get sore now is if I take time off and come back.

> 2 hours/day at 100% intensity is a lot, but I have found doing something physical everyday to be key to mental health, sleeping better, and general well being.

On non-gym days, I go for a 1-2 hours walk in the park/woods in the evening. It's very soothing and meditative (thanks in no small part to being unplugged from electronics), plus you can still get sweaty if you walk fast enough. Obiously, you also get plenty of oxygen vs the gym.

Me too. If you need someone to reach out to in the Austin area, feel free to DM me.

You should definitely see a therapist, you sound clinically depressed. Laying in bed all weekend is not healthy. Making friends and having lasting relationships takes effort but is a requirement to have a happy and fulfilling life (excluding total hermits who are perfectly happy ignoring family, friends, and social contact, and some of those people do exist on HN and will argue with this comment).

You have a career, now it's time to have a life. You owe it to yourself.

"Requirement" is too strong a word. We've all read the Harvard 75 years old study [0] probably here, cause it was posted couple of times on HN, but I for one side with Chamfort: "Happiness is very difficult to find in yourself, but impossible to find someplace else"

I've felt this way all my life, even before I read Chamfort. I always valued quality relationships with people, not just any relationship with anyone. To me, being alone is much better than being in the wrong company.

It's very hard to find good, well-mannered people with moral integrity. At least it is for me. And based on everything I see around me, those people are just rare. Most people tolerate each other, instead of actively wanting to be friends/whatever with each other. I don't fully understand why that is. But is just is. I'm curious to see other's thoughts on this subject, though.

[0] - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2016/03...

Exactly. I feel like I've had enough bad companies/relationships to be really content just to be on myself. And I feel so, so much better off with it. I have total tranquility of mins and can concentrate on what I'm passionate about, instead of being always upset, disappointed or have my attention taken away and all that. I still actively engage in online communities and this makes me happy. Also I maintain occasional contact with a few friends, who I sense to share my values and are generally reliable, which seems more than enough really.

People might have tended to "tolerate" others because it was harder to survive without the others, when technologies were not that advanced. But do a lot of people really want to be with the others that much? This I really doubt.

Also I feel the couple mentioned in that article might have well been better off if they could actually pursue their passions instead of focusing solely on personal relationships, or why not both indeed.

"I feel like I've had enough bad companies/relationships to be really content just to be on myself. And I feel so, so much better off with it."

Yep. Bad companies/relationships also reserve "space & time" and the "need" of possible new ones.

"It's very hard to find good, well-mannered people with moral integrity. At least it is for me. And based on everything I see around me, those people are just rare. Most people tolerate each other, instead of actively wanting to be friends/whatever with each other. I don't fully understand why that is. But is just is. I'm curious to see other's thoughts on this subject, though."

So much of this, I feel that 100%. And people who are like-minded to me feel the same. I think I have 6-7 people/friends like that, it took me time to find them, and I said many times no to "regular ok" people who are not ok to me. Additionally (don't take it too seriously) people who say they don't like people in general (like me :D ) are the ones who I like and who "do have a bar" at all.

To me it seems like most people are not in "real friendships " just accidentally sharing similar background in a space and time so they benefit some of the pros of having a "regular" relationship (eg. friendship).

> "Additionally (don't take it too seriously) people who say they don't like people in general (like me :D ) are the ones who I like and who "do have a bar" at all."

Chamfort, again, put it more eloquently than I can: "If you aren't misanthrope by age 40, you never liked the world anyway"

I guess the initial shock for me was that people know what they are doing and what kind of harm/pain they are causing, and at every step of the way they choose to do it. I've seen this all around me and I've experienced some of it myself and I just don't understand why is it so. There really isn't a need for it, people like and choose to do it. That's kinda scary to me.

Once you start thinking about this subject, you will inevitably realize the same, as a plethora of philosophers did earlier and since always, basically.

The only people content with the situation seem those that never started thinking about it anyway. Ignorance is a bliss? :)

He (or she) does not sound clinically depressed at all! They are excited about life and work. Wanting to relax and spend some alone time on the weekend is not depression. May be lonely, and probably not healthy in the long term, but not depressed. Depression is primarily characterized by hopelessness and despair.

"Moderation in all things" - Aristotle

Like others I think you should see a therapist about it.

Work - Gym - Netflix, misses so many things from reaching a balanced life.

A person needs to interact with others apart from their work and gym. Also I do understand that through e.g Netflix you are sort of interacting with 'others' points of views etc e.g getting emotional about your favourite character etc. Thing is that this needs to happen in your real life as well apart from the imaginary world of watching a film or online gaming for example.

I too for some years while growing up got stuck into computer games, and it felt like it was the only thing I liked to do. I got out of it and I am happy I did so, now I have a family, I go out, I go to the gym, I like working too, I do play video games for 1-2 hours a day on my off time and I am quite happy that I explored and learnt that there are way more things in life than just video games.

I hope that helps you understand that you also need some human interaction in your personal life.

Nobody wants to interact with me, can't speak for the grandparent, but not everybody has the same options as everybody else. With me, people have a visceral reaction of extreme dislike upon first meeting me, so I have to work twice as hard, and when "friendship" is so ephemeral it's a lot of work for little long term reward, tbh.

>people have a visceral reaction of extreme dislike upon first meeting me

What makes you say that?

I was in the exact same position. Growing up and playing online games, spending most of my time with people that were obnoxious douches - cause who cares its the internet (and they were older), shaped me to be an obnoxious douche too. 18 to 20 it was all time low for me. Apart from being very obese, I just didn't care about anyone I'd meet in real life. I'd put up a wall and anytime I'd meet someone I would feel like they don't like me etc.

Difference between you and me is that I worked heavily on it. I understood that I need to be more open to conversations and more kind. Also that not everyone speaks the online gaming culture language I do, people would not laugh at my brutal jokes cause not everyone plays games out there or has been subjected to trolling etc, and not everyone would diminish things so easily as I and other gamers would do. I lost all the extra weight and anytime the obnoxious douche would try to come out and be weird or mean to people I'd say no to him. If it did happen and I was a douche to someone, which can happen even today after many years I'd own up to it and be sorry and ask for forgiveness.

Nothing in this life is a given and yes some people like me and you have to put extra work in order to make things happen. Its totally doable though.

I'd also suggest you to find a therapist that you like and can trust and get some help on it.

Hope that helps you on your quest.

I faced similar things regarding time management. I shifted my exercise stuff towards HIIT, i.e. short but super intense exercises most of days (~30 minutes), with 2x/week strenuous weightlifting ones that might take longer. I know this limited amount won't make me an Olympic winner, but I don't care. Then, remote work with my own hours helps another time management issue; usually I am done working at 2pm and can do something with my life. Then once/twice a month I throw a party where I invite a lot of people from all around the world from different fields, many of whom I never interacted with before (if you are in a large international city, it gets easier). Then there are hobbies, where I suddenly have time to pursue e.g. serious photography or electronic music composition etc.

This is a super intriguing comment. Could you say more about the parties? I'm imagining a bunch of your Twitter followers descending from everywhere on Munich or something into a warehouse that you rent out.

I can relate to your schedule, but you have to break it up. Working out every day is great, but 2 hours of 100% intensity is tough. It's okay to do a light run on some days. The Zen concept here is you want to fill everyday with as much as possible without impacting your ability to do the same tomorrow. Think of your life as a marathon instead of sprint. What hours would you need to keep to exercise and work every single day? Treat the week like that and you'll have the time and energy to do other things on the weekend.

You also need to find some things outside work. Joining a sports league would help. You get your exercise and meet people. Jiu Jitsu is fun and many gyms treat all the members like extended family. It's also mentally challenging (think physical chess), so it gets your mind off of work.

Good luck.

+1 for BJJ as a exercise/social thing.

2 hours a day of solo gym exercise is pathological unless you have some really good reason to be doing it and it's making someone happy. Which it clearly isn't.

It's possible to get to 'intermediate' powerlifter level on about 2-3 hours a week. There are of course many other goals, but 12 hours a week in the gym is almost certainly reaching diminishing returns for almost any of the goals I can think of (with the possible exception of really hardcore bodybuilding or endurance work).

BJJ is not good for older bodies :). Its too tempting to keep rolling and ignore signs your body is telling you. I think BJJ is the most grueling on your body of all combat sports.

I'm a 46 year old mid-level blue belt. It's possible to avoid the temptation; I speak from experience as someone who has tried it both ways. It requires a considerable adjustment in your game and attitude to stay healthy, but I think it can be done (check back with me in a few years, though :-) ).

ps. The other element which really seems to help is to do some 'old man bodybuilding' (build some armor rather than trying to Get Hyyuge). This (stuff like high rep overhead presses with wimpy weights) really helps with some of my broken bits (ex-Judo shoulders, fr'instance). Dan John is a big influence on me.

If you're 40 going up against 20s all the time sure. But BJJ is one of the easier things I have done to my body. Basketball (back injury, broken ankle), wake boarding (slight concussion, torn ACL), and snowboarding have all been much harder on me than anytime I've done starting from a knee rolling. But, you do need to make sure the people you roll with are not idiots (like any other sports where you have to rely on/come into contact with others).

"starting from a knee" rolling, he says carefully. I bet there's a story there... I have a SLAP lesion from a Judo throw, myself.

Also +1 for "make sure the people you roll with are not idiots". I guess my role is to follow you around agreeing with you.

Further, make you that the person that you are 2 minutes after the roll starts isn't an idiot. My IQ often drops about 10 points her minute of the roll, so I'll go in saying to myself "OK, today I'm going to work the Shaolin sweep from knee shield half", a minute later it's "I'm going to get whatever I can get from knee shield half", a minute later it's "let's just wrestlefk my way to top position any old how and then work a principled submission" and by the end of the roll it's "smash this fool with everything I've got like it's the Abu Dhabi trials". I am very aware of this tendency and work like hell to avoid it, but it's important to recognize that idiot-avoidance isn't just about other people.

> I bet there's a story there...

No real story. I'm not a BJJ expert or anything, but my experience has almost always been starting from the knees. I have seen more MMA style gyms that I would avoid at my age. I'm too old to be punched in the face or thrown from standing :D

> Also +1 for "make sure the people you roll with are not idiots"

I broke my ankle playing basketball b/c of a new guy who showed up to play and ran through me while I had an open layup. I would have gotten in a fight if I could walk haha. Instead we had some choice words for him, and never saw him at the game again.

> Further, make you that the person that you are 2 minutes after the roll starts isn't an idiot....

Great point (and I'm going to get meta here), this is important to learn in life. How many times are you at work and a couple minutes into a discussion you or someone else loses their cool? It takes discipline to see that and stop it from happening. Martial arts really do teach so much beyond the activity itself.

I’d also recommend Jiu Jitsu. Incredibly fun, physically demanding, and very social. It’s also damn near impossible to be thinking of anything but the present moment while in the middle of rolling, so I’ve found it be a great way to reset my brain after a long and demanding day of work.

> I wouldn't be surprised if I died alone.

Everyone eventually dies alone, but do not let that sadden you. A full life is measured in the depths of sorrow from that truth, not in avoiding it.

Have you ever watched someone die?

Dying is terrible, but there is definitely a difference between being surrounded by loved ones and being all alone or among strangers.

"Everyone dies alone" is one of those things that is sort of technically correct, but has absolutely nothing to do with what people mean when they talk about dying alone.

The dying alone part isn’t so bad. It likely takes less than a week or so.

The sad part is the way there.

Yes, I watched my mother die (of cancer). I was standing in a circle holding hands with her and 3 or 4 of her best friends. On a sunny day in a house with 180 degree ocean view. They scattered her ashes on the ocean.

My dad died (also of cancer) 3 years ago last week. Didn't have a view of the ocean or anything fancy like that. But at least we got to be there for it.

Ah sorry to hear that. Not her house, she just had an amazing knack for having friends with nice houses that needed to be house-sat!

Dying is terrible, but there is definitely a difference between being surrounded by loved ones and being all alone or among strangers.

I don't know, dude. My dad died, but I'm not even sure he knew we were around him. He had been in a coma after a stroke for a couple of weeks at that point. The same goes for folks that just die in their sleep - I'm not sure it matters. I hope they weren't actually lonely, but I wish that for lots of folks.

My mother died in my arms. Surrounded by loved ones. Ghengis khan was also surrounded by loved ones when he died. Dozens of them.

I used to work out 1.5hrs 4 times a week -- it was so exhausting on-top of my normal day (I'm a dancer as well) that I was about to just let it all crash and walk away.

I since changed my schedule to 40 min, 3 times a week, 2 sets, maximum reps till failure with pyramids.

Most gains in strength i have ever achieved with the least amount of work I have ever done.

Less time - more ROI

check out @maclulich on Insta -- I can back it up.

What's your routine?

3 full body days.

2 sets, each exercise, 3-4 exercises per day.

For example (in kgs):

1. Deadlifts, 145x20, 150x13 2. Hamstring curls, 60x25, 65x18 3. Dumbbell bench, 32x24, 34x18 4. Lat pull down, 40x25, 44x18

Massive nervous system overload with high reps.

This usually leaves me shaking and needing a 5-10 min rest at the end in the changing rooms before having the energy to change and leave.

It's maximum effort in 40 min, and at least for me, it works.

Increase reps/weight as u cross the 20+ rep barrier.

The key here is going over te same muscles more often than what a typical more mainstream routine would have you do, ie go over a muscle group once a week. The smaller the muscle group the faster they recover, day or two, and then the protein synthesis goes down the muscle begins to atrophy before the next stimulus arrives.

I think we all need to be part of a small tribe, a group of friends we see at least every two weeks or so. Also getting intense contact with nature, I’ve noticed that if I’m without going out for more than 2 weeks I also begin to feel down and lay in the couch. Biking, skiing, trekking, it doesn’t matter, be out in the nature, far from the city.

Unsolicited advice usually makes me feel worse about a given discomfort in my life. Do others really think I haven't considered these simple remedies? Most people assume that, if someone is in a bad way and sharing their experience, they possess the armchair wisdom to save them.

I imagine they think you have tried most of them. But from experience, even if someone telling me to go do sports was getting really tiresome after a while. I was still looking for other things I could try.

On loneliness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3Xv_g3g-mA

"What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, but lose his soul?" Be sure to guard your hearts from the idolatry of work.

So...

If you are unhappy you should change. Take that as given.

I will second the people who say two hours is a lot. Honestly more time with lighter amounts of activity (thinking walking rather than deadlifting) is actually healthier for you in the long run. The human body is a 250,000 year old OS with the last update maybe 10,000 years ago, and for most of that time we sat around and ate a badger (or similar) maybe once a week.

If you want friends, join a group that does some light activity and then hangs out. Kickball is fun as is hiking or ultimate frisbee or kickboxing. Working out and friends can go together! Two birds stoned in the hand is worth three sober in the bush, or something.

OP, have you taken a look at alternate day total body workout splits, instead of working out every day ?

Something like this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDWyqnGhmWY

Maybe you want to ask yourself what you are working out for. If working out is actively eating into the reason that you are working out for, then I hope you can see the damage or at least the redundancy caused by extra workouts.

Also, you could take a look at some workout-esque hobbies. Bouldering has become very popular recently. Maybe try playing a sport that is high intensity (like squash or swimming)

Please read Feeling Good by Dr. David Burns, or even check out the website he maintains. He gives lots of resources for DIY Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, if you want to give that a shot before professional help.

Work less and get outside more. Whatever it is your job entails, it's simply not important nor urgent enough to deprive yourself of experiencing a greater variety of living.

Death, alone or accompanied, is inherently irrelevant. That you're even thinking about it suggests you're aware on some level that this pattern isn't a good use of your life.

If you're going to the gym that often, you must be in great physical shape. Go climb a mountain, working at computers endlessly is for suckers.

> ...if I died alone.

An alternate viewpoint on this - perhaps it will help you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5_m_3eHuQo&t=7723s

Regardless of whether you agree with Big Clive on this, his channel is amazing - IMHO at least :-)

This was me in grad school. I did do stuff on the weekends, but most of it was vegging. It didn't work out for me healthwise. I would recommend trying to transition into a more slow-burn, less intense lifestyle. If work is that intense that you need to crash on the weekends, it can add up over time in bad ways.

I'm starting to see this more and more after reading Bullshit Jobs. What's thing where you see something and start seeing it more and more called?

Baader Meinhof phenomenon

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baader%E2%80%93Meinhof_effec...

> I think it's mentally challenging, interesting, and important for our world and civilization

What do you do, if I may ask?

Do you smoke pot? That's how smoking makes me.

Hugs

Your life isnt pathetic, youre focusing on what matters to you rn in life.

>t. Same except managed to find energy to enjoy my weekends.

The secret is healthy diet, 8 hours sleep, drinking water, and limit in alcohol

> The secret is healthy diet, 8 hours sleep, drinking water, and limit in alcohol

It's not really a secret. We all know this, but few execute (common theme in life?).

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