Hacker News Reader

Comment by rtpg | Hacker News Reader

I think that the language tooling is really powerful.

I work in both Python and JavaScript, and I often miss Typescript’s power. I think Python still has big advantage in the libraries.

The standard library is full featured and well documented. But perhaps just as important is that libraries are also really often high quality with clear documentation.

I think there’s a lot of interesting JS libraries and experimentation. But I love not feeling a need for better Python libs, because they’re already so mature.

I think that a “tidy verse”-style project in JS to offer a “proper standard library” across the ecosystem would do wonders for the bit of a mess server-side libraries are at the moment. Something that could be as effective as jQuery was at corralling DOM API . The Node.js APIs are good baselines but not super fun to use directly...

View on HN

For me personally, the huge turnoff for JS/TS is the library ecosystem, and specifically this notion that everything is better as a myriad of tiny 10-line libraries with a spaghetti dependency graph.

Python is much more traditional in that it has a rich standard library to begin with, so most third party libraries are also bigger, and it's easier to track of what does what.

> a myriad of tiny 10-line libraries with a spaghetti dependency graph.

I'm curious why people dislike this. I'd rather have lots of little decoupled libraries than huge monolithic dependencies that attempt to do everything in one big folder. The big libraries often duplicate functionality found in smaller tools, and I would rather they simply consume a bunch of small tools that can be shared across the ecosystem.

It reminds me of the oldschool pre-systemd UNIX philosophy of "do one thing, and do it well". Did everybody change their minds on this?

The problems come in when one of your little dependencies itself depends on something else. You want a single level of dependencies. Monoliths are good for this because they try to be self-contained.

There are some downsides to it. The most critical issue is the left-pad threat: A tiny, unknown dependency with 3 stars on Github ends up being part of a huge project. Nobody in JS audits every single dependency up the tree, because there are too many of them. So situations like what happened with left-pad absolutely can and will happen again.

But there are other misc issues. For example, each package is a separate download with a bunch of metadata and overhead, so on download it spends a lot more time on those two lines than it would if they were just part of the library.

I like code splitting and there's a lot of benefits to the approach JS is taking, but it's not without its faults.

The JS libraries usually fail at the "do it well" part.

* UNIX tools don't get updated every week.

* UNIX tools don't get deprecated and replaced every month.

* When UNIX tools do update, the updates don't carry a risk of adding shady code from new maintainers because the original author "got bored lol" and handed the repo over to the first person who asked.

* When UNIX tools do update, the updates don't introduce unvetted and undocumented code that will, for example, start displaying Christmas decorations in your UI on certain dates.

How many UNIX tools actually come in "writing this from scratch is faster than searching for a tool that already does this, so I'll just write my own" size (except for `yes` and such)? Trick question: is trying to install a new UNIX tool similar to this [0]?

[0]: https://what.thedailywtf.com/post/1441806

In counterpoint, just for fairness' sake, we have:

The jokes in the Linux "man" command that indeed did trigger at a certain magic time.

* https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/405783/

The failure to take on board the improvements to Linux "ifconfig" from 2009.

* https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=359676#41

Changes to GNU "ls" that did not go unnoticed.

* https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1361694

That ls change is absolutely bizarre!

One of the aspects of, ahem, bazaar-style development that we don't talk about much is that decisions get made by whoever can be bothered to turn up. If it so happens that the only people maintaining ls are the three people crazy enough to care about maintaining ls, then ls gets crazy decisions.

Another difference is that the unix tools are a bounded and known set of utilities that work independently and compose well together and try not to overlap in functionality. Meanwhile, js modules are an unbounded set of unknown modules that are intertwined and aren't designed to work together and overlap in functionality.

Interfaces should be simple but functionality behind that interface should be non-trivial, otherwise it is not a net value add. John Ousterhout speaks about this much better than I could.

People don't know how to handle libraries that update frequently because it requires more buy-in on a specific aspect of CI/CD that folks don't often invest in (admittedly because it's not immediately obvious).

To talk about "monolithic" systems and "UNIX philosophy" is to not really understand. It's an oft-made mistake, even just considering systemd alone.

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19024256

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13390245

The actual ideas in computing when it comes to modular systems are cohesion and coupling. Modular systems should have high cohesion and low coupling.

The objection to leftpad levels of granularity is that it is high coupling, lots of little modules inevitably requiring one another in large numbers and complex ways. And a lack of any grouping at all is actually a lack of any sort of cohesion, coincidental or otherwise.

The definition of "one thing" can vary a lot. For example, libpng does one thing: it reads PNG images. But that's a much bigger thing than something like left-pad.

I've worked on lots of nodejs projects with 1-2k transitive dependencies. I've seen plenty of simple projects end up with close to 1 gig of files in node_modules. And almost all of those files are never used at runtime.

I'd be a lot happier with npm if tiny libraries took up less space on disk. Storing a local copy of each dependency's readme file, license file, package.json and test suite is overkill when the module itself is only a few lines long. Its also very common for sloppy package maintainers to accidentally ship binary files in their npm module (image banners for their readme.md, test data, etc.)

Npm should only download the javascript file for small single-file modules. Nodejs itself already supports this - if you have a javascript file in your node_modules directory, require() will pull it in like normal. The license might need to be prepended to the file in a comment block, but this could easily be done automatically.

I think if we look at it another way, you're going to find that this spaghetti dependency graph is the natural state of every codebase.

When people need to do a thing that has already been done a 1000 times there are at least 3 ways:

(1) write it yourself

(2) copy/paste someone else's code

(3) import/vendor someone else's code

(1) is definitely not a sustainable choice, especially for something that is frequently done.

The real interesting bit here is that I think (2) is just a shitty version of (3). You inherit the benefits and the bugs of the code you copy/pasted, and likely understand that code less than (1), which is increasingly true the more nuanced (and probably performant/good) the code is.

I think the question is whether you can see your spaghetti dependency graph or not, and how big the strands of spaghetti are. It's reasonable but likely pointless to argue about the size of spaghetti.

JS's library ecosystem lays bare the actual nature of bazaar-style development. The thing about cathedrals is that they take a while to build, and even then without the right people you can build bad ones -- JS's alignment to the bazaar style of doing things is key to it's iteration speed, and is it's best tether to the UNIX model.

All that said, not having packages be immutable from the get-go, and willy-nilly updating of dependencies without manual review are indeed problems with the ecosystem, with immutable packaging being the only one anyone can actually fix with code.

Don Knuth, for one, disagrees with your assessment of (1). (http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1193856)

Of course he would. He's likely to write it better than anyone wrote it before him. That's not something that works for other people, however.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com