Hacker News India
hackernews.in
hackernews.in
HN has been hobbled by small restaurant syndrome. Paul has been loathe to add basic features, let alone extend it, for the same reason a restaurateur will maintain a small number of tables: because he or she likes the client base and extending it will jeopardize that. That's a completely valid reason.
But there's a huge opportunity here to extend this to really assist in driving innovation. Add to your site the missing basic features such as search, then extend it with free startup job listings, co-founder matching, etc. (All those HN spreadsheets? Implement them.) You would be doing a huge service to the Indian startup community, and that means a huge service to innovation in general.
Also, there are other people who know already and can contribute
news.ycombinator.in would be a problem.
note: you might want to put in a disclaimer so as to dispel any possible confusion.
It doesnt help much that the Indian software scene has a stronger reputation for copying than for innovating. And I am Indian. I have similar minor peeves about OSQA helping themselves to SO. But I take back my comments if the news.ycombinator src as well as the brand were indeed opened up for that purpose.
Edit: "Ask Prateek" is "Ask HNI" now, so I take back that part of my criticism.
It just reinforces the stereotype that Indian software scene is all about unauthorized copying of other people's ideas. I dont necessarily agree with the stereotype but things like this does not really help dispell it.
Now, I understand that you are not moving away from HN and have created the site to discuss Indian specific issues, but I don't see what is stopping you from discussing those issues on HN itself. The site being an exact HN clone doesn't sit well with your good intentions. Add to that the fact that you are using the same name.
Sorry for generalizing, but IMHO, the global image of Indian hackers is not particularly good, and this sort of thing doesn't help. Personally I would suggest looking at some different means to solve the problems for which the clone was created. You have my respect for trying to take some initiative though.
I personally think this is a distasteful effort (specifically the use of the HN name for an independent site without permission vs just using the open source code), or at best a naive one, which will sputter along for a while and then die.The discussion so far on "HN India" is extremely sub par as compared to HN, and certainly not worth switching or even joining.
Imo, there isn't enough of a critical mass of India specific issues related to hacking/startups/programming etc sufficient to support a whole new community. Sure there are a few India specific issues but they'll be discussed to death in a few weeks and then the forum will stagnate. Discussion about programming/hacking/startups/other matters of intellectual interest are in general best done in a global context.
This is an unpopular view point amongst certain folks here in India(and I fully expect to be downvoted ;-)), but if they pull it off and create an ultra vibrant community, more power to them. I just don't see it happening. And as long as they are ripping off the HN Name (and brand) I won't even think of joining.
Do something original. HNI folks, may be you are tying to do a TEDx copy?
Yeah that's how I write these things. I refine my writing a few times before I am satisfied.
Editing already posted content is what the edit button is for. I write, post, read it over, see that something didn't come out exactly as I wanted, rewrite that and so on.
This is a forum post, not a formal essay that I should get exactly right before I post, then to remain untouched forever. The edit facility is provided so people can edit their posted content and that is exactly how I use it.
As to your replies becoming irrelevant I have no hand in that. I don't read replies and then re-edit (though I can see how it may feel that way to you,especially if you dashed off a reply before I finish rewriting some sentence or the other). Frankly when I (re)write something the (ir)relevance of any unseen replies posted is the least of my concerns.
"Kindly try to avoid this."
Change the way I write to accommodate your preferences? Thank You for the suggestion but I decline ;-)
If it bothers you that much wait a quarter hour or so before you pen your reply. Or save the first version you see and quote it. If you can wait an hour, the post becomes locked and uneditable. Don't be so quick to reply if you want a guarantee of immutability and "relevance". Or just learn to live with the ephemerality of your replies. Or just don't reply to me. Whatever. (Feel free to downvote this if it wasn't the answer you were looking for ;-))
(fwiw I rewrote bits and pieces of this reply eight times in about four minutes,without ever checking for any replies)
100% agree.
"This is an unpopular view point amongst certain folks here in India(and I fully expect to be downvoted ;-))"
Exactly I got down voted when i said "Its unnecessary"
But having a local technology discussion group might not be all that useless - let me explain.
There are other hi-tech communities in India, similar to HotHardware or Extremetech which are hugely popular in the community (e.g. http://www.erodov.com/forums/gigabyte-ga-x58a-ud9-review-ln2...). So this is not something that is of unproven relevance.
India has a chicken and egg problem in terms of programming intellectual prowess. The community is driven primarily by that which can lay down your daily supper - Java/JSP/VB/ASP . By virtue of the existing tech leadership pool, most innovation is driven from the west. And it takes a long time before the community takes root in India.
<begin rant> I blame the community for it. For instance, it would make far greater sense for the Linux community to try and hold their top level conferences in India - which could very well be their biggest customer base (the west is lost to the fruit seller already). Did you know Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. sell laptops with Ubuntu/Freedos preinstalled in India (off the shelf) ? </end rant>
Point being, I think India does need a sunrise period for its technology community to be shepherded in. Hacker News is definitely too advanced in its expectation of the community for... say a fresh-behind-the-ears college student in India.
This community might also be too Yank in its vernacular. Yes, there are a lot of Indians around, but we are all comfortable with the vernacular, prefer it even. That is definitely, definitely not true for most Indians who might feel completely alienated (especially the younger ones)
For all the other Indians, torn between feelings of loyalty and betrayal, I encourage to search out and mentor the fledgling community back home - they need your help so that eventually they can come here and start flaming!
Good Points all. A couple of minor points. My distaste is not so much about the name per se as the casualness of the ripoff. One email to the original site's owner (in this case PG) would have set things right one way or another before launching. Apparently this is being done now. Better late than never. pg will probably wave this through (or not) and that will be that. Then the "HNI" folks can focus on quality ;-)
As to the need for a community to "shepherd in" bright kids, it is an interesting idea but I am not so sure this is an answer to that need or even whether that need even exists in any deep fashion. (I speak as someone mentoring some ultra bright students working in Machine Learning). Something like Google Summer of Code might work much better. But, you maybe right. Maybe "shepherding" is what people need and perhaps a localized HN-lite site is what is needed. For some reason I am not too comfortable with the idea. I need to think about this.
Thank you for your thoughts. They made me (re)think.
While I do agree that, Indian startup community has its own challenges and latest gossip from Angel world of Silicon Valley is of little interest to us (None of the Angels operating out of valley invest here, including YC) but if you leave technical and design problems those issues can be counted on fingers.
Then there is problem of getting traction and yes perhaps Indian entrepreneurs need separate forum for that. "Show HN: Blacklist/review autorickshaws using SMS", might be of little interest to global audience.
My point being, while technical or design discussions at HN will be always superior and there will be little benefit in repeating them on HNI, so clearly there is no need of separate forum as such for such things. What is left is, problems of startup community, there have been numerous efforts to solve that, if HNI succeeds in that; awesome. But at the end of day, HNI won't be a forum in the same spirit as HN (Just startup stuff, no need to call hackernews, which means a lot of different things).
In the past I've actually toyed with the idea of creating a website for Indian coders, but other projects got in the way.
However, I'm uncomfortable with the name chosen for this website (HNI), and won't be joining it unless it gets a new name.
There are many issues that hackers/entrepreneurs would like to discuss which never get enough traction on global HN. This could be a good place for those items.
For the sake of respect, I would consider renaming your project.
Also, I picked this name as we decided to put up HN India in a HN meetup and also because HN conveys our objective well. We are not running this for profit.
I have written to him and will wait for his reply. Thanks for all the feedback.
If I didn't know better, I would assume that Hacker News India was affiliated with the original, which is a problem. HN would then be affected by any actions of HNI going forward, and no trademark holder wants to be put in that situation.
I would strongly suggest finding a new name.
Whether or not the site is for profit is entirely irrelevant; it comes off as you trying to cash in on the work that PG et al have put into building up the HN brand. It's tantamount to stealing.
Not only that, but it might cause confusion.
I wish you good luck, but I hope you'll change the name or at least put up a disclaimer in an obvious place noting that you are not affiliated with Hacker News.
This is a good initiative but please call it something else.
It cannot be a replacement for HN, but I hope it does become a useful (add-on) forum in its own right.
P.S. Yes, the site's name should ideally be something else.
http://hackernews.in/item?id=1
Thanks to PG and HN for the code and inspiration. Now only if I could get the latest code base :)
On a positive note, nice job! It looks like you're getting a bit of traction already.
I am using this codebase - https://github.com/nex3/arc
If someone can tell me how to put a disclaimer in the footer, I will put it rightaway.
The right way is to change the name. If I start a site called Google India, or even Digg India, it isn't enough (legally or ethically) to have a disclaimer in the footer, even if I am running a non profit. You keep repeating the "this is not for profit" sentence. That isn't a valid defense against brand name abuse.
At the very least get permission from the owners on the original site before starting a new site by adding an "India" to its name.
The last thing "Indian hackers" need is a reputation for ripping off other peoples work/brands (As if the outsourcing horror stories aren't enough). Use the open source code, by all means. But don't copy the name.
I am an Indian developer and I think such unabashed copying of a popular brand is shameful. YMMV.
Even if the source was free, the brand need not be and in that case HNI would be plain illegal.
Its been mentioned here that Firefox is open source but they own the brand. If hypothetically speaking, you start distributing Firefox with its proxy settings customized for Indian ISPs and call it Firefox-India, the chances are high that you will hear from lawyers.
(channelling the sentiment of the recent Zed Shaw ruckus)
Real Hackers in India I know few (over social networks) they don't talk.(You can't see them in foss.in )They just code.!
We are not there yet. so just code! <back to maintain the spaghetti code>
(Disclaimer: I'm a Indian. I'm not a hacker myself yet,I still work in a body shopping "Megacorp")
[Deleted] Few points as its reported as offending.My point is Programming / Hacking has to align with global context.
And in my personal experience I never found any good hackers in the local community, I have always founded them outside of it and I don't expect HNI will have them. If it does Im happy as well.
Any way its just a number on site, keep 'em coming ;-)
Personally I was more offended by the unfalsifiable definition of the mysterious 'real hackers in India'.
Not sure I agree with all the negative comments here about the IP issues. After all, NewMogul.com was (is?) pretty much a clone of YC News here, but open to submission and discussion about more broad topics besides startups.
Perhaps I'm off base because I don't know the way the site is set up, but are comments and articles shared between the sites in any way?
Also, more importantly, has there ever been a survey or statistics collection as to where contributers are geographically located?
Something like this is totally necessary, but this approach is very wrong. Its sad Pratik keeps mentioning 'profit' in terms of money. Glory to the name is enough a profit imo.
2. It could increase the quality of the original.
A point that I would like to make is that HN is non profit and so is HNI. So the analogy you give may not apply here.
You should respect the law and change the name or take the site offline until you receive appropriate permissions.
Please note that even licenses as GPL or MPL (that govern the Firefox code for example) give you permission to use the code, not the trademarks of the project. Ubuntu had to make a Linux package called "abrowser" ( https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+package/abrowser ) simply because Mozilla didn't agree with branding their modifications as "Firefox".
It also occurred to me that hackernews.in is clearly a website aimed at Indians, so I don't know to what extent US law applies.
Anyway, it seems that the name is going to be changed, so this whole trademark point becomes moot. http://hackernews.in/item?id=375
Make no mistakes, I agree that its a great service. I would use it myself if the outstanding issues are resolved. But as I have said before, helping yourself to someone else's brand and work isn't very ethical regardless of its legal status. My views about that wont change even if pg agrees out of politeness.
The situation is not exactly the same, because you did start with a code snapshot that PG made available to the public. However, it's generally considered bad form -- as well as confusing to visitors and search engines -- if you use a name that is extremely close to the original site's name.
Things would be different if you created something in a totally different medium, or if, as others have pointed out here, you first got explicit permission from PG and YC to do this. The site name "Hacker News", though it is composed of two generic English words, does now form a unique reference to a specific site that carries a certain cultural cachet and set of expectations. To "ride" that, without permission, is not a good idea, even if you can get away with it.
One good thing that may come of this, however, is the notion that perhaps there's enough demand to make PG consider adding a "sub-Reddit" like feature to the HN codebase. So folks like you who basically just want to not reinvent the feature set, and also want to address an approximate subset of the core HN readership -- where in this case the subset is Indians or India-ophiles, etc. -- could do so freely with explicit support and functionality that enables it.
Copyright, IP and trademark don't only apply when profit is involved.
I reserve judgement on the appropriateness of appropriating the Hacker News name---but please don't labor under the impression that you can use someone elses (c)/(r) as long as you aren't making money.
Aside from seeking permission---you really should add a footer stating you are not affiliated with Y Combinator etc etc.
However, I thought I might point out the irony of all of this. A "decent" definition of Hacker is "a programmer who breaks into computer systems in order to steal or change or destroy information as a form of cyber-terrorism" (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=hacker).
The irony comes when hackers get mad at other hackers hacking their hack.
I think this is called a cluster hack.
i would love to hear about the issues, projects, and things in general that startup founders, hackers, techies, and tinkerers around the world have to deal with.
why slice by region?
as i see it you're segmenting across the wrong vertical. look at the stackexchange model: are they spinning off "stack exchange: china"/"stack exchange: india"? -no, its stack exchange: physics, stack exchange: math, etc. they're differentiating based on general subject matter. is that model something that could be replicated in the context of "all things hacker"? sure (hardware, software, gadgets, networking, cracking, blackhat/whitehat, security, etc). would it succeed? who knows.
However things like payment gateways, local events, feedback on startups focused on Indian markets are not very global and may not interest a large majority of hackers here.
I never implied HN will not welcome such discussions or disapprove of it. I just feel (as others do too) that its hard for these discussions to get enough visibility here (for the reasons mentioned above).
"However things like payment gateways, local events, feedback on startups focused on Indian markets are not very global and may not interest a large majority of hackers here."
I personally would love to read articles or posts on payment gateways, how they differ region by region, who controls what market, major players, how their systems work, how their businesses and pricing schemes work, highlights of their unique adaptations, or things certain providers are doing that set them apart or allow them to succeed in their particular market.
I think that's exactly the sort of discourse that should be taking place here; "what's hot in silicon valley" is great --and we get plenty of that-- but broader discussions on things like opportunities in emerging and rapidly growing markets should as well.
Its the notion of helping oneself to the brand without earning it in anyway that I find disagreeable.
i agree, however would not a /r/india work as well?
HN community has been absolutely wonderful all these years, but for startups every geographical region brings in its own set of challenges. If we need to spur on the innovation and startup culture in India, we would have to connect and help each other out whenever required.
For example, check out this link - http://hackernews.in/item?id=182
I never knew about some of these startups and especially who are the folks behind it. This thread would obviously have got lost had it been posted here.
I see the new site's value in setting up a platform for collaboration amongst hackers/entrepreneurs of India. It cannot replace HN for me, but can be a useful add-on forum.
I urge anyone who is not considering joining to just go and at least see whats happening. You would be pleasantly surprised. And after that I am sure you would agree that many of those discussions would have sunk here to oblivion.
This is a great forum to meet indian hacker, especially if you are in banglore.
A community, with a well entrenched reputation for cheap knock-offs, helps oneself to a brand without permission (that would be stealing) and then shows attitude about it.
There used to be an old joke about different countries coming together to show off their engineering prowess by improving a parent product originally from US (or Japan I do not remember). No one can figure out India's contribution. It turns out that they have stamped "made in India" to it.
HackerNewsIndia reinforces that very stereotype.