Penn (of Penn&Teller) tries to charge a TSA employee with assault
pennandteller.com
pennandteller.com
Page title is "Federal V.I.P Penn - 11/13/02"
This is sometimes called a "Bivens" claim; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivens
Finally Metro PD shows up. It's really interesting. First of all, the cop is a BIG P&T fan and that ain't hurting. Second, I get the vibe that he is WAY sick of these federal leather-sniffers. He has that vibe that real cops have toward renta-cops....
I tell the cop the story, in a very funny way. The cop, the voice of sanity says, "What's wrong with you people? You can't just grab a guy's crank without his permission." I tell him that my genitals weren't grabbed and the cop says, "I don't care, you can't do that to people. That's assault and battery in my book."
I've also been wondering about civil suits. Maybe that approach will be tried soon. It does seem like the number of incidents (or incidents becoming known) is increasing.
the attitude of the local cops to the TSA is one of the things I was thinking about in the other thread. it's a situation with overlapping jurisdictions ... and also, most cops I've talked with about airport security see it as ineffective and see the TSO's as not having a lot of training in police work [which is in fact true].
Further, it's been mentioned elsewhere that the Supreme Court determined that TSA does have the authority to detain you in the airport, which means that even if you choose to walk out and risk the fine, they can still physically restrain you without legally assaulting you.
I'm as against the ridiculous new regulations as anyone, but I'm surprised by the general lack of sympathy for the actual TSA agents on the ground, regardless of anything...just as a matter of course.
As far as I can tell the agent in question made an honest mistake, they didn't notify Penn. I have a hard time believing anyone who travels could be unaware of the new regulations. This doesn't excuse the mistake, but it's important to put it in context.
They definitely dropped the ball, and deserve some sort of chastisement... but is slapping them with an assault charge really fair?
It seems to me it would be taking it out on the little guy...
I don't envy these people...they're generally hated and I don't know if you've notice but the general American public is not largely composed of people I'd want to lay hands on.
They probably have to frisk 1000's of people a day, and as many in Penn's story confirm this is all so new and up in the air.
Everyone makes mistakes sometimes....it's unavoidable. Doctors sometimes make mistakes, and people die. Generally though, they are only punished if they really screwed up...and even then not with criminal charges.
It's also worth noting Doctors are generally well paid for the responsibilities their position entails.
TSA agents are probably not paid terribly well, but regardless are expected to be perfect machines.
The problem is all this stuff about sexual assault clouds the issue....there is a lot of potential for a (and I hesitate to use the term, but I'm not sure how else to phrase it) "real" sexual assault to occur...where a TSA agent is clearly and deliberately overstepping the bounds...and when that happens it may be lost in all the other stories of people who are shrieking "sexual assault" just because they (rightly) disagree with this stupid policy. I have a hard time believing Penn really felt as if he was assualted, except perhaps a metaphorical assault against his dignity and personal liberties. That is a serious assault...but this agent is not the one responsible for that.
The attitude some people have towards TSA agents strikes me as childish and incredibly entitled.
We should be holding individual agents accountable, but I can't help like feeling people are holding them to a higher standard than is really realistic, and are misdirecting their anger....it should be directed at the policy makers not the poor shmoes who it falls upon to enforce it...people just trying to make a living and get by.
I would say making a fuss, and even calling the Cops was a good idea as it really registers the outrage and puts a cost on keeping this stupid policy....ruining some poor shmoes life with actual assault charges? not so much...
OBVIOUSLY it isn't as bad, but you have every right to get mad at someone for doing something that's oppressive, even if they are a wage-slave.
1) I'm not saying "don't get mad"...I explicitly said otherwise. I'm saying "we should punish appropriately"
2) The basis for this is not so much that they were following orders....the basis is they made a mistake while carrying out their job.
There's a big difference between someone who is a murderer for a living and a Doctor who makes a (reasonable) mistake and kills someone.
The Doctor shouldn't get off Scott-free, but neither should they be charged with first degree murder.
The "just following orders" bit comes in because let's be honest: There seems to be an undercurrent here based on the fact that Penn has a disagreement with this policy.
So Penn basically "has it out" for this guy in advance based on the fact that he disagrees with what the guy's bosses ordered.
Like I said before, the guy screwed up...but it must be put in context.
I think it's important to discriminate between someone who through circumstances does something oppressive, and someone who ACTS oppressive.
In the case of the former, you should take issue with the act, and the circumstances.
In the latter case, you also take issue with the person.
I don't have much to go on, but I get the general impression that this was just some poor shmoe trying to do his job. He didn't set out to violate Penn's rights.
Penn shouldn't just drop it...but neither should he ruin the guys life.
It's very easy (and imho a little lazy) to say "well they should just quit their job instead of being a tool for the man.
There's so much wrong with that sentiment I don't know where to begin.
To answer your question directly:
No, you should not as a matter of course.
A lot of Nazis were practically kids. They may have been drafted...if they disobeyed orders, they might have been shot or sent to the Eastern Front.
By staying, they might have been able to treat the Jews a little better than their replacement would...who knows.
Again, this doesn't absolve them but it's important to put in context.
Who you should direct your anger at is the people who ordered the Jews into the gas chamber...and the people who agreed with it.
...but if you really want to go there.
No, absolutely not.
"Superior Orders" has historically been recognized as a legal defence.
What happened 60 years ago was they decided it couldn't excuse acts...just reduce the punishment.
If you go back and read what I said, you'll see I'm not advocating absolving them of quilt, but just making sure their punishment is commensurate with the nature of the crime and their culpability.
I think given the circumstances as described, assault charges are a bit much.
I don't know about you, but if any authority figure told me “Once you cross that line, I can do whatever I want,” I would absolutely interpret that as a threat. I agree with you that TSA agents have a difficult job, and I don't believe that they deserve disrespect just because they're TSA agents, but clearly some of them have decided that they're above the law, and that is absolutely not the case.
Granted, I see how you could mis-interpret the "real" comment, but I assure you that it had nothing to do with the law.
I am not a lawyer, and am not qualified to judge....I would say I think this probably does technically fit the legal definition of assault.
However, I would note there are quite a lot of things which are technically illegal but in practice are only partiall enforced. Our law is designed with a lot of breathing room.
I agree the agents comment sounds pretty prick-ish and sinister, but this is a second-hand story casually related and it's really hard to tell not having been there.
We don't even know that Penn is quoting verbatim and not paraphrasing.
Based on Penn's apparent disposition towards the incident, and how he didn't give any indications that the guy was out of control...I'm going on the assumption that what this was was a failure to observe proper procedure rather than a drastic over-stepping of bounds, harassment, etc etc.
If that was not the case, I'd withdraw my statements re: this particular agent... but I stand by them overall.