> the words Rat and Rad are pronounced identical, thanks to the Auslautverhärtung.
Are they though?
> Ich habe einen Rat für dich.
> Ich habe ein Rad für dich.
Are they though?
> Ich habe einen Rat für dich.
> Ich habe ein Rad für dich.
I couldn't believe it. Neither could my fellow students in Phonetics and Phonology.
But the spectrogram doesn't lie. Looks exactly the same.
The rules behind the shift in pronunciation can be looked up by searching for Auslautverhärtung. Isn't this A1-level German?
Because it isn't anymore the final consonant in the listed related forms. The rule is that simple. Note that it also affects some vowels.
> German speakers tend to "hear" a difference, purely by association, that isn't there phonetically.
This is so annoying. Some then try to prove you wrong and try to stress the soft consonants at the end of words until realizing that it sounds stupid and wrong. Such stubbornness.
The "t" in "Rat" is pronounced much harder than the "d" in "Rad" is. BUT: The more and more you go into the north of Germany, lets say Hamburg for example, they have a very similar pronouncing of "t" and "d". Both often sound very hard (more like an "t"). Whereas people in the south tend to pronounce both letters more soft, like a "d".
But in general they are pronounced differently.
In dialects they may be pronounced differently.
And for whatever it's worth, the Auslautverhärtung you referred to in several places in this thread is also just a Northern regional thing: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auslautverh%C3%A4rtung / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final-obstruent_devoicing#Germ...
Here (eastern Austria) "Rad" and "Rat" (can) sound different.
What is the ending of the pronunciation of 'und' in your region? Is it 'd' or 't'?
Yes, for TV news announcers.
> Auslautverhärtung is part of that standard.
Says who? Not Wikipedia, which says that that's a regionalism and quotes sources. Where is the standard codified?
> What is the ending of the pronunciation of 'und' in your region? Is it 'd' or 't'?
This is a trick question: If I answer the same as you pronounce it, you'll say "see, it's standard!", and if I answer the other way, you'll say "well, it's not my fault that you don't speak Standard German™".
That said, it's 'd'. If anything, it's softened further and half swallowed to say something like "un'".
You answer yourself:
> Yes, for TV news announcers.
> If anything, it's softened further and half swallowed to say something like "un'".
Do you have a recording of that?
Besides that, I wonder why you are so confrontative. I don't mean to.
No, I meant, where is the standard issued by the Kultusministerkonferenz, like there is for Standard German spelling? A convention is not a standard.
> Do you have a recording of that?
I'd say it kind of like the Swiss German speaker here: https://forvo.com/word/und/#gsw
And coming back to the original Rat/Rad distinction, https://forvo.com/word/rat/#de and https://forvo.com/word/rad/#de do sound different. The second "Rad" speaker (from southern Germany) makes almost no 'd' or 't' sound at all, but the same speaker pronounces "Rat" with a very hard and clear 't'.
> Yes, for TV news announcers.
and for everything else on TV, netflix, etc. What else would define a standard?
Why would there have to be a standard? My point is exactly that there isn't one that captures how actual people actually speak German. There is one for written German that everyone agrees on, but not for spoken German. And that's completely fine.
> Ich hab 'nen Rat für dich
> Ich hab 'n Rad für dich
where they sound the same.
> Ick hab 'nen Rad/Rat für dich.
either way!