Doing Good Makes It Easier to Be Bad
nautil.us
nautil.us
Incorrect. Furthermore, the salaries are often public, so this is provable. Look up our 990 if you don't believe me. You can also review via GuideStar[0] or Foundation Center[1]. I work with a lot of fellow non-profits, on average our positions pay about 80% of market. Perhaps you are only looking at CEO pay? On average, that is also below market, but there are some outliers which I'd have to guess you are basing your incorrect assertion on.
[0] https://www.guidestar.org/Home.aspx [1] https://foundationcenter.org/
From there I would say that the status and prestige of working at a large and powerful NGO can make up for the difference in pay one might make elsewhere. There are obviously many people who go into non-profit work for purely altruistic reasons. I only meant to state that there are plenty of people who do not. Therefore using the position as a signal of the quality of a person's character is not valid.
I was in fact using "above average" as meaning they tend to be more white collar jobs that pay more than the median salary.
With that said, this really seems like something that is upsetting you and I really want you to know that I'm not trying to play a game or trick anyone. Either way, it's just a web forum. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. There is no prize. Just making internet conversation since I'm a little bored today.
Please don't get too worked up about it and I wish you well.
Simply put, they are better off than most.
The comparison with similar positions is the only one valid, because those are the better paying job they did not take even though they were qualified.
Those people are not taking a hit working for an NGO because they would never have the equivalent roles in the business world.
I recall someone hired at Baylor University as a part of dealing with sexual assault investigations (before the big scandal) believed it would be a good job because ... they thought there would fewer such problems at a Christian university.
I was bit shocked that someone tasked with investigations like this would even think that (wondered about qualifications).
In the end, people are people. No job or role really makes them any more or less anything. It's about who they are, and their choices, not the job, title, or etc.
In some circles its trendy to work for non profits and sometimes even benefits are much better than working for a regular organization where $$ return of investments are monitored closely. It's basically do good porn for some.
Some people (men) become aid workers so the can use their power, as aid workers, to rape refugee women and children.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43206297
"Syria conflict: Women 'sexually exploited in return for aid'" -- the United Nations and other charities, hire them.
Why don't they just hire women instead, to distribute the food, please.
To give more than anecdotes: it’s self-evident that more prestigious work can afford to pay less than competitors that are boring and get you spit at by your friends.
Maybe I just lack the context but I don't really understand how sexual harassment is in the same vein as visiting prostitutes. What is morally wrong about seeing prostitutes? Did it somehow interfere with their jobs? Or were they using charity funds?
You can ethically justify going to a Vegas or Amsterdam brothel under the pretense that the workers choose to be there and you're paying a fair wage for the service; it's a fair transaction and nobody is being exploited.
Shopping for prostitutes at a time and place where people are doing anything they can to survive in the wake of a disaster is exploitative.
Hmmm to me it seems like a pretty shitty thing to do. You're an executive at a charity there helping people after a natural disaster....paying one of those people for sex seems just ya know...like a bit of a shitty thing to do. Even if it was their job. I think it's more the context and timing of the situation that's the problem.
Again...these are executives in a charity...in a disaster stricken country....supposedly there to help out...having sex with local prostitutes. I'm sure if it was during their own free time, possibly while not in a disaster stricken place it would likely be less of a big deal.
Especially because as an executive at a charity devoted to ending poverty you should probably be trying to help these women find other means to live rather than encouraging them to sell themselves...especially right after a natural disaster. Just saying...seems real shitty to me.
They're basically taking advantage of people in a desperate situation despite supposedly being there to help.
Why? There's nothing wrong with sex work, it's just a job. Would it be shitty to pay them to wash your car or whatever?
It would be shitty to drive from your city (where a car wash is $10) to the neighboring tent city and give them only $1 to wash your car, because you know they won't have another option.
If there's no alternative, doesn't that mean they'd starve? Are you saying death by starvation is preferable to sex work?
The charities should instead hire people who aren't predators. People who don't take advantage of the vulnerable people at the catastrophe site.
What if you had a child or sister, who got kidnapped. Then the police came, and said to your child or sister: "Ok, we'll rescue you, if we can have sex with you."
Based on your reasoning, this would be fine to do, to your child or sister. Because if it wasn't for those hero policemen, she'd remain kidnapped, right.
However, the make-sense approach, is to fire those policemen and instead hire others, who took the job because they want to help victims and society, rather than wanting power so they could abuse vulnerable people.
What? That's a completely different situation. The person in the story was doing his job just fine, no blackmail involved. He just decided to spend his free time paying for a sex service.
Hiring a prostitute in your free time is not abusing people.
I get the impression that you have in mind hiring a prostitute, in a well functioning society with no poverty, and with a well fare system that people can fall back on.
Actually I read about someone in the country where I live -- he was working as an artist, made okay with money, and decided to quit his job and work as a prostitute instead. After doing that, he made about as much money as before, and he liked being a prostitute, better than his previous job as an artist. I think he and his customers -- it's fine, I see no problem with that. He also did not have a traumatic childhood or anything like that.
However that's different, from an earth quake disaster site. There, people are struggling for survival and food and shelter, and some of them will do things they don't really want, to stay alive.
I want the aid workers who did not become aid workers to help anyone, but instead to take advantage of vulnerable people, to be fired. And replaced with others who are genuinely interested in helping people -- I think the latter will do a better job. And b.t.w. I think these two groups of people: men looking for cheap sex with vulnerable women and children, versus genuine helpers, are non-overlapping.
OK, fair. I might be assuming the best, but is that really unreasonable? We don't have any details, but I think it's most likely that the guy used protection, wasn't violent and paid properly. My issue in these discussions is just that everyone seems to go on a moral panic and assume the worst whenever sex is involved. Informal jobs in a poverty-stricken country with no legal oversight are an issue I agree, but there's nothing special about the ones that are sexual in nature. Now do you think people would be talking about it at all if what the guy had done was pay someone to carry his luggage for a couple hours?
Sex is a maybe-death thing.
If the woman gets pregnant, there's a relatively high risk that she'll die, during delivery. Or, if there's no man there to help her, when she is pregnant and vulnerable and cannot find her own food, she's at risk of starving and dying.
Maybe / probably those "aid workers" used contraceptives, however, the feelings part of the human brain doesn't understand contraceptives. Those parts of the brain are still in the stone age. The feelings involved, for a woman who gets raped or has sex because otherwise she might starve to death, is not "I carry bags", instead it's more "I might die from this".
(For a man, the feelings can instead be "I'm reproducing, great. No risk for me, I don't get pregnant".)
It's like you're saying that having sex is so terribly bad that it's better to let people starve instead, but that's a bizarre idea considering the fact that sex actually feels really good.
What would you do in the car washing example? Drive back to your city and pay $10 because paying someone who's willing to do it for $1 is exploitative? Surely the people doing it for $1 would rather do it for $1 than not do it for $0.
No-one here is trolling - this is part of a contentious philosophical debate. It does not help to assume bad faith on the part of your opponents: there are strong points on both sides of the argument, and it is a difficult issue.
To sum up what I understand the reasoning to be:
On the one hand, there's the basic "utilitarian" approach. Essentially, regardless of moral values or rules, in which instance would more people end up better off? Between sex with people you don't really want to, and death, if you prefer the former, then the world in which you end up doing so is the preferred world. Taking your example, if the alternative to exploitative policemen were NO policemen, then she'd just end up dead - I'd rather someone were exploited than dead (though obviously I'd also prefer they weren't exploited at all).
Now, on the other hand, there is your argument, well-formulated, that exploiting someone in this way is a pretty crappy thing to do, to put it mildly. You are correct - the approach we would take is to fire policemen who would do such a thing, and instead aim to hire to those that would do their job properly without exploiting people. We have the ability to do so - there are enough people who are good enough and willing enough to become policemen that we are able to make this decision, so we definitely should.
Now, there are some cases where we don't necessarily have this alternative option. Let's take unwilling prostitutes. I think we can agree that it's terrible that there are people who have to have sex in order to get enough money to live. Now, let's say there's someone near the prostitute, with enough money to help her out of her plight, you feel he should give money to her, but he doesn't, and he walks on. How harshly do you judge him? Now, there's a second person with enough money to help her, he instead decides to pay her to sleep with him. Do you judge him more harshly than the first? Why? She's ended up in an overall better situation after her interaction with the second man, than the first, even if her situation overall is still terrible.
Yes, it would be better if the second man gave her the money and went on his way, just as it would be better if the first man did so, but in the absence of being able to convince either of them of doing so, do we win anything by chastising the second man's action as awful? The prostitute is making a choice between unwanted sex, and death, a bad choice to be sure - but taking away that choice is equivalent to forcing upon her the choice of death.
> I'm sure if it was during their own free time, possibly while not in a disaster stricken place it would likely be less of a big deal.
So there is a question of why this would be the case? What is the difference?
Now, of course, I don't feel that those taking part in the disaster relief are absolved. It doesn't sit right with me either, and I also feel like it would be better to have people there who were purer in their intentions. And I would take the fact that they did this as evidence that they might not be as moral in other aspects of their life / job.
The point is - I think that this is a difficult moral question, and just because your moral intuition is strongly repulsed by a certain action does not necessarily mean to say that it is wrong (though it very well might be) - our moral intuition is largely shaped by our society. People in other societies, as well as people from older times in our own societies, judge actions very differently to the way we do today, yet their moral intuitions feel just as strongly.
I think deciding on what is Good requires a combination of feeling and logical reasoning, as well as some discussion and debate. I'm not suggesting that you should change your opinion regarding this specific instance, or even this general moral value.
All I'm saying is that others might have valid reasons for believing the things they do, with as much consideration as you have for the well-being of those under discussion, and that you shouldn't necessarily dismiss the viewpoints of others as trolling just because they don't align with your intuition or viewpoint.
On the other hand, sometimes you should, because sometimes people really are trolling. And sometimes people are just so wrong you can't help them. I'll concede that it can be difficult to decide. But more often than they should, people dismiss others as evil, or their viewpoints as stupid, without giving sufficient consideration to whether they have legitimate, non-strawman, non-selfish reasons for holding them.
I think the implication is they visited underage ones. But you'd have to look at the details. I know there was the controversy about labelling Haiti unfairly, but I don't think it's that controversial to suggest it's not exactly like Western European countries which are supportive of this type of work with all the proper safeties, enforcement and legislation in place.
The article imho does a poor job of evaluating how reliable the research that it quotes is.
http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/01-the-lady-vanishes/
From the episode of "Canada on Strike": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN_h_HBzZnc