Hacker News Reader

Comment by dv_dt | Hacker News Reader

These seem like utility (landscaping) grade golf carts that are already a market in the US. Available in mostly gas, but some electric forms.

https://www.deere.com/en/gator-utility-vehicles/

https://www.toro.com/en/sports-fields-municipalities/utility...

https://www.catresourcecenter.com/machine/landscaping/utilit...

View on HN

I just don't get it. a John Deere Gator with two seats and 4 wheels, and not much else costs over $7000 new. No windows, No airbags, pathetic top speed, not road legal.

A Lada 4x4 costs less than that brand new in Russia. Road legal, standard car top speed. Known as a very reliable car. Why can't I buy a really cheap car in the United States?

edit: also the lada 4x4 is possibly the coolest car i've ever seen, in it's own unique way. I would do anything to import one, but it's not legal.

Whats the crash testing like on that Lada 4x4?

I don't know, I assume it's better than the more expensive open air golf cart that i'm comparing to though.

edit: What i'm trying to say is, why is a fully functional car (even with bad crash safety and emissions) cheaper outside the United States than a golf cart is here? The answer seems obvious to me. Making it illegal to import cars has stifled competition and hurt consumers in the US.

But if it's not good enough to pass US crash testing then it's pointless to release here. No one wants a golf cart that looks like a car.

Because the quality is much lower. The tractor is meant to be used near capacity for thousands of hours. Lada not so much. Lada is known to rust easily, John Deer is known for quality...

Also, you are comparing two different spectrums. Maybe compare against very good farm equipment in Russia?

I'm seeing a lot of "John Deer == Quality" comments in this thread.

My farming background says "John Deer == artificially (and insanely) expensive maintenance". I've always equated JD with just being one of the biggest players, not necessarily a reflection of good quality.

That said, we had no issues with the John Deere trackers we had. Same with IH, for that matter.

...no issues...

You've been fortunate with your tractors. IME, even "quality" brands like Deere and IH often have infuriating issues for which one eventually learns to compensate. It's good to talk to a few people before buying anything. My dad has a guy he always calls who owns a tractor auction, and can be trusted to tell the truth about different models.

Ceteris paribus, I would just get a Kubota.

politics. US car market is protectionist in nature.

Yes, the domestic automakers are terrified that someone will begin importing a new vehicle that is nearly competitive with a 1979 AMC Eagle. Clearly, a protective tariff is what's called for, to prevent the US auto industry from being overwhelmed by the makers of Soviet 4x4s and chest-freezer sized Japanese cargo vans.

That's assuming they travel the same speed.

Because Lada 4x4 has a much higher top speed it is has the potential for much more serious accidents.

From Wikipedia:

In 2002 the Lada Niva was awarded zero stars out of a possible four by the modern Russian ARCAP safety assessment program.

Lada Niva is quite robust. I guess that it will crash whatever it hits. The same will happens to the humans inside. The car itself does not break easily :)

That is cool looking. Reminds me of a jacked up, 80's VW Rabbit.

"Road legal" has a different standard in the US. To sell a car in the US it must have airbags, ABS, electronic stability control, a backup camera (also implying a decently-large full-color display on the dashboard), and it must meet USDOT, NHTSA, and EPA standards (each of which are slightly incompatible with standards from other regions, and intentionally so as a soft trade barrier). I'm guessing that the Lada 4x4 would be too close to a "real" car to be sold as a "not-car" offroad-only vehicle but would require too many changes to be sold cost-effectively as a "real" car in the US.

FWIW if the car is >= 25 years old, most of these regulations go away.

I have a 1990 Subaru Sambar pickup truck [1] imported from Japan that is street legal and registered in Washington state. It’s probably only a tiny bit safer than a motorcycle because it has seatbelts. Maybe cancelled out by the fact that I don’t wear a helmet while driving it.

You can get them for $3K - 5K depending on condition and they are excellent little city trucks that get fantastic fuel economy. Getting used to the right-side drive and shifting left handed wasn’t so bad. The hard part is the blinkers and windshield wipers are swapped!

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_Sambar#/media/File%3A...

You just rekindled my long time desire to own one of these. I saw them all over the place in okinawa and I have a die-cast toy car of one somewhere around here. I remember there was someone who put that longhorn decoration you see as a texas cliche on one. They definitely are pretty neat. It would be great for hauling landscaping items from my local nursery without having to get a full sized truck.

I'm with you, I've always admired the teeny utility trucks I see when I travel in China. It never occurred to me I could just import one thats >25 years old.

Some states won't register kei-trucks, so check with your state first. There are a few importers that keep some on stock.

For example, here is a big one in southern WA: https://www.nwminitrucks.com/inventory/active

And here is where I got mine in Seattle: http://sodo-moto.com/in-stock/?shipment=in-stock&body-style=...

If you aren't towing anything or driving cross-country, they can do just about everything a full-size pickup can do.

The bed size is 6.5 feet long and 4.5 feet wide. That's the same length as the Ford F150 bed, and the same width between the wheel wells. They are rated for 350kg (770 lbs) but you can go up to 450kg if it's well distributed.

I am an amateur carpenter and haul wood around the Seattle area in it all the time. It's absolutely perfect for this use case. It sips gas, too. Gets 30 mpg city 50 highway.

You can get 4x4 kei trucks as well. They're quite popular in New Zealand for farm work. Not road legal at all, but if you put offroad tyres on, they're basically a quad bike with a roof and a tray.

That's just so cool. I don't know why. It's somehow got this giant "I do what I want" attitude written on it. Muscle cars seem so conservative and formulaic.

For whatever reason, the current generation of teenagers seems to think it's really cool. I get compliments and genuine interest from that cohort all the time. I guess it might be because it's kind of a rebellious/counterculture/ironic sort of vehicle to drive in a country dominated by F-150 style trucks.

I knew someone when I was in high school that drove a Jeep CJ (not sure if it was a retired postal jeep or was originally sold as consumer), and I was immediately taken by how cool it was, and how much I wanted one.

I think it appeals to some in the same way that classic muscle cards do or did. Most people I knew that owned and or "restored" (using that term loosely) these cars when I was young were much less interested in being historically accurate, and much more interested in putting their own touch on them. It's a method of self expression and displaying your identity, and one that's approachable to those that are sometimes much shyer about doing so in other manners.

I speak as someone whose first car was a 1967 Mustang, and whose second was a 1973 240Z, but who now happily splits my driving time between a Toyota Camry and Honda Odyssey. I sometimes entertain the idea of starting a project car again, but with so many other projects to choose from, I doubt I'll get to it any time in the next decade.

FWIW the >25year old rule is not true in California. Things are much more complicated here.

Good.

> FWIW if the car is >= 25 years old, most of these regulations go away.

Most of those are only required to sell a new car; a car previously legally sold in the US (and maybe one sold after being legally imported by a consumer) doesn't need many of them, though it will have had to have met whichever were in place when it was first sold.

Just don't plan on driving one if you're over 5'10".

I am 5'10" and have 5" of headroom (just went out and measured to write this comment!). The cab is actually really spacious.

I'm somewhat surprised since I'm 5'11", in the drivers seat of a Delica, which is considerably larger than a Sambar, my hair touches the ceiling trim.

Regs also "go away" if you sell the car in parts that can be put together; it basically becomes a "kit car" at that point.

Plus, there is some kind of loophole out there for some of the quads out there (well, at least here in Arizona - we play kinda fast and loose with such I guess), like the CanAm vehicles; I see them licensed and tagged and going down the road all the time here in sand land.

Then again, that re-issue of the Jeep from India can't be sold and driven on road legally - even here in AZ:

https://jalopnik.com/the-mahindra-roxor-is-a-tiny-offroad-je...

There's an import dealer in Seattle that sales similar models. Eg:

http://sodo-moto.com/listings/1987-mitsubishi-truck-2wd/

Manufacturers can put the backup camera display in the rearview mirror so they can get by with using the same cheap dashboard for fleet and commercial vehicles. I've seen this in newer Uhaul vans but not anywhere else.

My Honda CR-Z had this. Loved it, because it meant I got a dash with real buttons instead of the laggy infotainment crap that's in my current car (Subaru Impreza).

TIL new cars sold in the US require backup cameras. Wow.

It's because there are so many trucks and SUVs which can completely obscure people (especially children) under 5 ft (~1.5 m) from their rear windows when they are too close to the vehicle because the vehicles are so high off the ground.

So this is required to sell new cars; it's not required to be street-legal, though, right? For instance: you can't sell a car in the US without both side-view mirrors, but you can drive a car without one of them.

Yes, the safety equipment standards I listed are for new vehicles. Existing/used vehicles only need to comply with the standards that were in effect when they were new (and even then those standards are only enforced in the 15 states with mandatory safety inspections). The only exception I think is seatbelts since it's illegal to drive a car without wearing one in all but one state.

> The only exception I think is seatbelts since it's illegal to drive a car without wearing one in all but one state.

I know in Arizona if the car didn't originally come with seatbelts then you don't have to install them. Used to have a '53 Dodge that didn't have them and it was fine -- kind of freaked out my sister though...

To be fair, it is still reckless to drive an old car without seatbelts. Even more so than driving a newer car without seatbelts.

Careful about relying on that, as while state law may not require you add safety equipment such as seat belts, county or city law might. I live in a location in California (which doesn't require seat belts in cars prior to 1965 that didn't originally sell with them), but the local laws require them to be present and utilized while any vehicle is in operation.

> Careful about relying on that, as while state law may not require you add safety equipment such as seat belts, county or city law might.

We're talking Arizona. Here, you can get away with just about anything, and unless it's blatant, nobody really cares. Sometimes not even then.

I recently was talking about protected left-hand turn patterns and remembered a trip to Arizona in the early 2000s. I remember my parents being initially cautious but quickly thrilled about protected left-hand turns coming after yellow lights and before red lights. It seems like it ought to reduce congestion and accidents.

So I started looking into it, and I found that that isn't even an all-Arizona thing. Municipalities decide their own light patterns. Some places even change the pattern from morning to night coincide with commutes.

I never did figure out if there were any safety or congestion benefits. I'm still shocked that that level of localism doesn't cause chaos.

Mostly just Scottsdale does that and it does cause a bit of confusion when people don't expect it and are playing with their phones but overall it's better since people don't clog up the left turn signal running the red.

Ideally this would have only targeted vehicles that have this problem. I wonder if they didn't want to disadvantage pick up trucks because they are pretty much exclusively made in the US due to existing burden on imported pick ups. I for one wish we could find a way to address the US pickup and SUV disease and encourage much smaller cars.

I agree that it's a disease, but I believe it's simply a disease of luxury. Americans are wealthy enough to buy the most convenient car possible and afford the gas costs that go with it. I drive small cars and once in a while with passengers we feel cramped, or I have to borrow my dads truck to haul some wood for a project or some plants from the nursery.

I think it must be more than that though. People in central and northern Europe have plenty of money as well and spend a fair amount on cars. Those cars tend to be very different though. You'll likely see more luxury sedans, tuned Golfs etc. Pickup trucks are almost entirely non-existent. Business would get a sprinter that actually keeps stuff dry.

I think at least part of it is feeling unsafe in a sedan with these giant trucks around you. There also might be a uniquely American affection for that type of vehicle and the image that goes with it, as well as a ignorance for climate concerns. More often than not when I see a vehicle with a American flag on it it's a pickup and certainly never a Prius.

> ignorance for climate concerns.

And the EU has demonstrated ignorance for actual air pollution. Their obsession for CO2 reduction has resulted in some of the worst air quality. Particulate and NO pollution is far more dangerous to human health than CO2. In trying to “save the world,” Europe has managed to poison itself through years of misguided policy objectives.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S136403211...

I think it’s mostly a cultural thing but the pickup is just so dang convenient. I have two dogs and a young child and it’s just so convenient to plan a trip where we question what we might need and can just say ‘Oh well, we have room. Just toss it in the bed.’ Do I need this vehicle? No. I survived just fine without it. However it’s the same payment as the small SUV we owned prior with 10x the utility. Why wouldn’t someone own one?

It seemed to me that when I visited Australia many people drove smaller variations of the pickup. I’m not sure why they do not have full size pickups but, if they were a financially viable option, it seemed like they would sell extremely well there. Point is, a pickup is super convenient. US just seemed to be the place where cost, affluence, and utility hit the sweet spot and they sell like crazy.

I'm Aussie, we call them "utes". Our taxation systems don't reward large vehicles. We have taxes on purchasing them, yearly tax on registration and compulsory insurance, high fuel taxes, etc. Even the "smaller" pickups are quite expensive to own and operate. The large ones wouldn't sell well here due to the cost.

US taxation works the same way. It does very somewhat from state to state, but generally there is a sales tax assessed as a percentage of the sale price and an annual registration fee commensurate with the assessed value of the vehicle. For expensive trucks and SUVs, the latter can reach into the thousands.

Since most people are not buying a 35k+ vehicle with cash money, instead taking out loans, they are required by the bank to carry expensive full coverage insurance on top of the state-mandated liability insurance - and generally a more expensive vehicle will have more expensive insurance, since a tota loss requires a higher payout.

Gas prices in the US are lower than in many countries, but there are state and federal excise taxes, generally (nominally) used to fund road maintenance. Combining a large tank with long commutes and poor gas mileage, it’s not uncommon for people to be spending $200 (with the current low prices) a month per vehicle on gas. This is a significant fraction of post tax income for most Americans.

Americans are spending a ton of money on large vehicles. They know they’re spending a ton of money on them. For whatever reason, they really think it’s worth it.

Here it's a bit different. We have special taxes that only apply to utes/vans/trucks and our annual fees are based on the engine size of the vehicle (with a bonus fee for utes/vans). I traded my ute in for a smaller car about a year ago and my yearly fees have halved, my on-road costs have halved, etc. I do agree that you have an odd cultural fascination with them, that's why I don't think they'd sell well here. We are trending smaller nowadays.

My mom mentioned an old school way for a small child to die was to go out outside and play behind the car in the driveway. And then have daddy run them over backing out of the driveway.

thump

My own dad backed over my tricycle.

Ever wonder why you only have automatic power windows on the drivers side? In the early sixties I had a second cousin strangled by one.

That’s not old school, sadly it still happens all the time (running over toddlers)

In the 60's people generally thought nothing of a 3 year old going out the front door by themselves. That's what I mean by old school.

I have a van without out a back up camera, I'm slightly terrified of backing up because of small scampering children and short Asian grandma's. I've noted balloon cross overs have the same problem.

When reversing a car like a Mustang, you can’t see what you are about to roll over either. The U.K. is apparently also considering mandatory backup cameras. It isn’t just a “truck” thing.

The Polaris Slingshot is the closest "car" I can think of. They have 3 wheels and are licensed as a motorcycle, so they skirt many of these safety issues. They also cost $28k; more than a lot of cars. Compare that to the Kia Soul that starts at $16,500. I guess you're paying for cool factor on the Polaris.

Blimey, all cars sold in the US must have a parking camera?

>>A Lada 4x4 costs less than that brand new in Russia. Road legal, standard car top speed. Known as a very reliable car. Why can't I buy a really cheap car in the United States?

Average Russian's buying power vs US one. Plus, USA demands a lot more, and it can afford it. If your family dies in the car crash anyone from the tire to the glass maker will be sued.

https://www.deere.com/en/gator-utility-vehicles/

You're right about John Deere Gator being overpriced.

If mass produced, there's no reason why Chinese (or others) can't build something of comparable quality for $3k.

The Gator isn't really overpriced: it's a low-volume vehicle and the price reflects that. The low-end Chinese-branded UTVs don't cost much less (I'm pretty sure the Gator, despite the JD badge, is made in China).

It’s made in Wisconsin likely from a host of Chinese made parts.[1]

[1]https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/26725/John-Deere-plant-Ga...

With the Deere Gator, you're paying a bit more for quality, and more for brand recognition. There are very likely competitors in this same category that have both lower prices and less famous names. Sometimes higher prices for better quality is good, or at least ok overall.

Lada 4x4 is an extremely outdated car. They are started to manufacture in 1977 and did not change much since then. Only engine was upgraded to conform to modern ecology standards. Crash test is terrible, it's probably worst car in the world in that aspect. Also it's extremely unreliable car.

That car makes sense in some areas of Russia (or similar countries). While it's unreliable, usually it's easy to repair and spare parts are very cheap, so for some people it's not a big problem. With its 4x4 drive, excellent geometry and low weight you can drive over very bad terrain and that's important in some rural areas in Russia. And of course it's dirt cheap, so for low income buyers it's much more practical choice than spend 5x money on some brand.

I have no idea about US, but honestly I don't think that many of those advantages would apply there. Also I've certainly saw those cars in US, you probably can find one in second hand market. It might be called Niva.

>It might be called Niva.

Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lada_Niva

Having driven both I must say while the 2121 (the USSR Niva) has great nostagic appeal, the Chevy Niva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Niva) is quite a bit more comfortable. Still the same problems with reliability, since it's just a new body on old everything else.

Edit: all in all, I prefer a diesel Hilux and/or suitably old Landcruiser for the offroad duties. Going anywhere on a highway is a pain in either Niva.

Mmm...I dream of bringing a diesel quad cab Toyota Hilux or a Hiace from Central America up to Canada. The Hiace is the coolest minibus. Heck, I would even take a Ford Ranger quad cab diesel.

Well I'm googling it, but no I'm pretty sure you can't buy a new Lada 4x4 for less than 7000 $.

On the other hand in Europe you can buy a new Dacia Sandero for under 7000 euros. It comes with power steering, front electronic windows, heating, airbags and 4/5 safety rating.

I doubt that Dacia Sandero can compare to Lada Niva when it comes to off-road performance, though.

Well, depends on location. In Russia you can buy it for ~6550 (quickly checked the prices of one of the dealers).

Few reasons :

1. Higher government regulations. This includes safety as well as emission regulations.

2. Actual implementation of those regulations. In many countries as I know regulations are routinely ignored and bribes are paid to keep quiet.

3. Contrary to what others might tell you American cars tend to be far more robust than most other countries. This is because Americans drive more and over longer distances and far too often.

4. There is no market for cheap cars in USA. That Lada 4x4 will not sell in USA at all with its mere 1.6L engine and 90 Mph max speed.

Of course if Lada had to slightly rebrand and market its car as "non-road vehicle" they might sell for the $7000k. Mahindra from India did the same and they have been selling their mini jeep for <$10k.

Could it also be the USA system of dealers having to be 3rd party my law and therefore needing to mark up the price for their profit vs other markets where car companies run their own storefronts?

This is the vehicle that I wish could get funded, and then be purchasable in the United States - but I doubt that will ever happen:

http://oxgvt.com/

The only vehicle I'd like to own more than that one is a re-release of the M274 Mule:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M274_%C2%BD-ton_4%C3%974_utili...

>The only vehicle I'd like to own more than that one is a re-release of the M274 Mule

Ah, the military golf cart. I'm sure you can get a used one? Also you might be interested in its direct Soviet counterpart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LuAZ-967 (or the civilian variants like 1302)

For the Mule: "The driver's seat could be removed and the steering column moved forward and the vehicle driven in reverse to accommodate more cargo. If under fire the steering column could be moved farther forward and down, so the operator could operate the vehicle while crawling behind it."

That's a really cool bit of design! The minimalist make-do-with-what-you've-got philosophy is so different from today's ways of designing military gear.

Except these are designed to be road legal in the 46 states that allow them. As far as I can tell, the utility vehicles you state are not road legal - the difference is minor though as you can legally drive them on the road in all 50 states for things like agriculture but the limits are stronger.

28 miles per hour pretty much rules them out except for residential neighborhoods. Most major city streets in the U.S. are at least 30 mph. If the Pickman can be improved to go 40, it might stand a chance. Otherwise, it's just a glorified golf cart as the other poster suggests.

You could get by with 28 MPH in some cities. Boston for example has a 25 MPH speed limit city-wide, unless posted otherwise. It wouldn't work in some places, but I wouldn't mind using a fancy golf cart there to run errands. That Pickman truck in the article is right up my alley.

NEVs have been available for 20+ years. If you want one you can have one now.

I just priced one, they are almost double the price of this, so if quality is there this could still be a good deal.

Most shops I've seen are small boutiques rather than auto manufacturers and they're priced accordingly (no economy of scale). Seems hard to get something that isn't a literal golf cart (i.e., has no cargo space or doors) for under $10k.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com