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Comment by akshatrathi | Hacker News Reader

I wrote this article and a field guide on China's electric-car boom https://qz.com/guide/electric-cars/. Happy to answer any questions.

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I saw that you also wrote about how these cars phone home real-time analytics data to the manufacturers and Chinese government:

https://qz.com/1490376/chinas-electric-cars-are-government-s...

Has there been any word whether the international versions also provide "analytics" for its drivers?

Thank you for these articles!

Do you know if they actually make a profit on a $1000 or $9000 price, or they're just dumping their products on the market, like they did for solar panels?

I don't for certain. In my trip to China, I couldn't meet makers of LSEVs. What I do know is that there are no subsidies in that market, which means carmakers won't survive if they don't make a profit. But it's a good question whether they are making that profit at the cost of human lives (no crash protection) or the environment (lead-acid batteries).

There is honestly little/no question there as to production methods and their human and environmental impact.

> But it's a good question whether they are making that profit at the cost of human lives (no crash protection)

To the extent that the cars are replacing scooters, they are an unmitigated benefit, safety wise.

Not true. Going from cars to scooters is safety-positive for those passengers, and safety-negative for everyone outside that car, particularly those who are not themselves in a car.

Exactly. This just happened to me when I was struck by a moped in a near-fatal crash. Because it is not a motor vehicle by insurance and Legal standards in the USA it does not require a license or insurance to operate. If you are hit by one of these, you’ll find there’s no insurance to cover you other than your health insurance. Underinsured coverage on your auto policy will not apply either, as it would if you were hit by a motor vehicle.

I have just had a look on Wikipedi for the list of road deaths by country [1].

The figures are from 2013, so very out of date, but for the UK (where I live) it is 5.1 road fatalaties per 100,000 motor vehicles. For the US it is 12.9, and for China 104.5. I think that shows pretty starkly that the reason we are paying so much more for our cars is for a massively higher chance of surviving an accident.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...

China has twice the rate of fatalities per vehicle of Argentina, which has twice that of the USA, which is four times worth than Switzerland. It means the cars sold in Switzerland are much better than in America and everywhere else?

Modern American and European cars may have a positive impact on the fatality rate, but the numbers above don't prove it in any way. I suspect the local culture of driving and the legal policy explain most of the differences between these rates.

BTW, when walking or riding a bicycle, I'd rather get hit by a 20 year old average car than a modern SUV.

> ...or riding a bicycle, I'd rather get hit by a 20 year old average car than a modern SUV.

Been there, done that and it still hurts.

Though...it does turn out that learning how to do a proper parachute landing fall in the army is directly applicable to civilian life and distracted drivers.

> I suspect the local culture of driving and the legal policy explain most of the differences between these rates.

Local culture has a huge impact. Adherence to seatbelt laws, tolerance of drunk driving etc vary massively.

> BTW, when walking or riding a bicycle, I'd rather get hit by a 20 year old average car than a modern SUV

I'm not 100% sold on that - modern safety ratings like Euro NCAP also rate injuries to pedestrians so the hoods of modern vehicles are designed to give way. Some cars (e.g. Volvo) even go as far as to have active hoods - "Sensors in the bumper detect when a pedestrian has been struck and actuators lift the bonnet to provide greater clearance to stiff structures in the engine compartment"

You might also not even get hit in the first place thanks to AEB systems.

It's a combination of dumping and also just extremely low-quality materials and products. I would be extremely surprised if any of these vehicles lasted a year.

About 2 years is about when most seem to pass the worth-it-to-repair mark. These are all basically designed to be nearly disposable as technologues and tastes change.

Are these road-legal in the west? If the off-road farm and construction-site applications are the only use-cases, that would seem to rather limit the impact on the market.

They will be in the US, because there's supposed to be NHTSA-approved version. Given regulations in Europe, I assume that would be the case too.

That means this version has some more safety features than the the base model in China, which could explain why it costs more than 3x outside China.

> which could explain why it costs more than 3x outside China.

Yeah, this has to be more than just western-market markup:

>> Kaiyun will start selling its “Pickman” electric pickup in the US, Germany, and Italy as soon as next month. The base Chinese model sells for 16,800 yuan ($2,500). The US version will start at $8,950, Fox News reports.

These I'm not sure, but overall yes they can be street legal: The Renault Twizy -- I've seen them in France and in Cambridge, MA (https://www.bonzer.rocks/) They're in use and cost ~10k. Last time I checked you can get a 25mpg and a 50mpg version. While the 25mpg versions are street legal and available now in the US market, I believe the 50mpg version is still only available in europe.

https://www.renault.fr/vehicules/vehicules-electriques/twizy...

Mph?

The trick with Renault Twizy is that it is not registered as a proper car, but rather as some kind of motorcycle with a roof, so it does not have really stringent safety requirements.

Because it is not a motor vehicle by insurance and Legal standards in the USA it does not require a license or insurance to operate. If you are hit by one of these, you’ll find there’s no insurance to cover you other than your health insurance. Underinsured coverage on your auto policy will not apply either, as it would if you were hit by a motor vehicle. Source: this just happened to me.

Generally, while your insurer (health, auto, homeowner, or otherwise) would cover your initial costs, you would get reimbursed by suing the driver of the golf cart that hit you and they would either personally be liable or pay through their insurance company.

The difference is that it’s illegal to drive a motor vehicle without liability insurance. With other vehicles, that can be just as lethal to pedestrians or cyclists, there is no such requirement. In my case, the driver who hit me was homeless with no insurance of any kind.

That's awful, I hope you're recovering and can be made whole quickly. Regarding your under/uninsured coverage, were you outside of your vehicle when you were hit?

For a website servicing the US market (Bonzer in Cambridge MA), the website sure doesn't seem like it was written by someone who understands English, and the pictures are written in French and have km/h. I undersand Renault is a French company, but Bonzer's American-facing website doesn't give me much confidence in their commitment or quality in this market.

A lot of European companies are like this and don't get really good translators and often don't really grok the internet - most of the content in PDF form is common.

According to an owner I had a chat with a while ago, the catch with the Twizy is the monthly battery pack "insurance" which isn't that cheap. IIRC there are two options for a buyer: either pay this insurance that covers everything, including getting a new pack once the old one is depleted, or buying the new pack as a spare part which will cost about half of the car price. All things considered, it's a nice vehicle that is getting some success (I've saw a few during last years) yet still not economically convenient compared to traditional cars.

Probably, but you better check your exact situation which might be illegal anyway.

They are legal in 46 states currently, on streets with a speed limit <= 35mph. Some towns have more restrictive laws as well.

Thank you for populating your articles with graphs and sources at qz, that makes it one of my favorite source of information!

It also happens to be my favorite thing about writing Qz articles. :)

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