The Takedown That Put Carlos Ghosn in Jail | Hacker News Reader

The Takedown That Put Carlos Ghosn in Jail

bloomberg.com

77 pointsn_t28 comments

Interesting read. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know anything about the charges, but just on the face of it they have the feel of criminalizing something that used to be winked at due to the person involved no longer enjoying the support of those required to do the winking. I have a really hard time believing Saikawa didn't know what Nada and his crew were up to. The whole thing very much feels like a palace coup, and a somewhat remote and entitled European perhaps not understanding his Japanese colleagues as well as he thought he did. The pivotal moment might very well have been the dressing down he gave Saikawa over his criticism of the proposed new alliance structure, and in front of at least one other person. That's a grave thing in Japanese culture.

Anyway, I'm willing to bet in the end some deal is struck whereby both the accused leave Japan. I doubt they actually want them sitting in a Japanese cell for ten years.

Some theories floating the idea that it was Japan being annoyed at not having enough control so they ~arranged their way to the head by dirty (slightly) tricks.

I'd do believe it's probably true.

> Suspects can be held without charge for as long as 23 days, and they have no right to a lawyer during questioning. Prosecutors also have the power to forbid family visits. When the 23-day period expires, a suspect can be rearrested for another offense, resetting the clock to zero. And once someone has been indicted, the outcome is all but predetermined, leaving defense attorneys to focus on coaching their clients to confess in the least damaging way.

The U.S. criminal justice system receives a lot of (arguably well-deserved) flak, but this seems almost borderline inhumane. Is "innocent until proven guilty" not important in Japan like it is in the U.S.?

Given that the conviction rate exceeds 99% it all seems like splitting hairs -- when you've been charged, you will be sentenced. It seems unlikely that they're just that good at deciding who to charge.

It’s based on extracting confessions. If you’ve confessed, naturally you are guilty.

They just don’t actually charge anyone until they’ve already confessed.

The only problem is that insane structure where they basically lock you up until you are so tired of it you confess to basically whatever they want out of desperation.

I’m fairly sure that if he just waits it out he’ll go perfectly free, and I suspect he knows the same.

If you’re locked up no matter what, what’s the difference in being found guilty of not?

That argument holds true at every percentage, and it gets trotted out here on HN with regularity. "Oh, the DOJ would never charge people that they aren't sure they will convict" and variations on that theme. Getting arrested at all is in the eyes of many the same as being guilty of something even if not the particular crime you are being charged with.

Prosecutors tend to only take cases with high certainty of conviction. It’s also why murders get classified as “accidental deaths”, because prosecutors are unwilling to prosecute on iffy evidence (they know someone was murdered, but just don’t have bullet proof evidence).

> Is "innocent until proven guilty" not important in Japan like it is in the U.S.?

Not even close. Among notionally liberal democratic states, Japan and the US are nearly at the opposing extremes on that ideal.

Plea bargaining brings the US a lot closer the Japanese system than it really has to be.

Also “lying” ala Martha Stewart. They don’t get her on the crime she’s accused of but rather of misleading investigators. But they can’t waste millions to come up with nothing, do they hang her on that and call it a victory.

Look up the US conviction rate. It’s not as different to Japan as you might think. In both the US and Japan if your case goes to trial you are in big trouble.

my biggest takeaway from the entire affair is just how horrible the Japanese justice system is

In addition to that absurd holding time: defence lawyer doesn't see the case until close to trial, almost impossible to get bail, the absurdly high conviction rate, not being able to take notes, forced interviews, confessions, having you "prepare for a confession"

Sounds like a justice system from a dictatorship, not a supposed liberal democracy

Sometime back in the 90's, I remember seeing a segment about the Japanese justice system on either 20/20 or 60 Minutes. Basically there was an American who had the misfortune of simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time, got arrested, and had to endure this torture for the better part of a year. I they said he was lucky enough to actually be in the 1% that isn't convicted. The whole ordeal was so bad that it actually made me afraid to even consider visiting that country.

This is nothing new, its just that everyone is now being reminded about it because of a high profile case making the news rounds.

It's pretty rough. In my (limited?) experience, I prefer the Singaporean justice system to Japan's (which I have learned to avoid at all costs)

Contrast this with billions of dollars of fraud that happened in Olympus in 2011 where the guilty parties did not go to prison and only received suspended sentences.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympus_scandal

I feel that in the eyes of most Japanese, these two cases are differentiated by the maxim cui bono?

Olympus executives broke the law in an attempt to benefit their company. Ghosn allegedly did so for his own personal benefit.

I read the lengthy article expecting some strong accusations of fraud, but the "deffered compensation" accusation is BS, and the other one (of using firm's resources for personal gains) is what every CEO does when he takes the corporate jet to play golf.

My guess is they just wanted to do a coup against him, and tgegis was the easiest way in their eyes.

This article does a good job of summarising the actual crime Ghosn is alleged to have committed:

https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Ghosn-charges-are-thin-soup-...

As any good lawyer would ask of these charges, cui bono?

The charges seem very murky. The evidence that Nissan managers schemed to have Ghosn removed seems quite clear on the other hand.

I don't like putting words into someone else' mouth. As I'm not a lawyer, my guess is as good as yours, but I do hope that any good lawyer would say: I need more data to make up my mind.

There is no obvious answer to the accusation that Carlos Ghosn's fiscal optimization was illegal. We know also that hundreds of millions were paid by Nissan to Ghosn's relatives and friends, and to his personal projects, but who can say if it was fraudulent or not? He may have provided false information to justify these payments, with the complicity of other executives. It's easy to imagine scenarios where his greediness made him cross the line. It's also easy to make him the innocent victim of an internal coup. It could be any, or partly both, but I don't event want to guess when I know so little.

> Japanese companies generally provide homes for their senior executives, and for Ghosn, Nissan provided five—in Paris, Tokyo, and Amsterdam, but also in Beirut and Rio de Janeiro, where he had negligible business ties but extensive personal ones.

…

> Ghosn didn’t have enough in his personal accounts, so he arranged for Nissan to take on the contracts temporarily. Later he took them back, secured by a letter of credit from Khaled Juffali, a Saudi businessman whose family firm later received $14.7 million in payments from Nissan’s CEO Reserve, a source of money the company says Ghosn controlled with little oversight … Ghosn’s representatives maintain that the transaction was properly approved and that Juffali, who owns a car dealership chain, was paid for helping with regional distribution, not for getting Ghosn out of a jam.

…

> Nissan covered the cost of his Rio yacht club membership, and his sister was on the company payroll for more than a decade, performing ill-defined consulting duties in Brazil.

Looks fishy to me.

Might be fishy - but doesn't feel like any crime was committed

And much of it seems to have been known to the Nissan board. It feels a bit like Captain Renault being shocked about gambling at Rick's in Casablanca.

By Brazilian standards, this is peanuts...borderline clean, legal, and normal.

He was foolish to mix his money and the company's money; CEOs should always be explicit about this, if only for the optics.

Not sure it's a crime, though, and the Nissan senior management seem to have known about it for a long time without doing anything about it. This seems quite negligent of them.

This article seems to underplay what a demi-God he was in the auto manufacturing business.

Nissan was my client for many years. Carlos Ghosn was treated like a God, not unlike Steve Jobs or Elon Musk in some circles.

Even if he gets released, it's a remarkable fall. His life of being worshiped wherever he goes is over - in or out of jail.

What happened to habeas corpus? Or a presumption of innocence? Clearly this is not a concept in the Far East. Sure, the guy made millions and wanted more. But he did well by his company and his employees. I feel like this case could have serious repercussions for Japanese business. This is a big red flashing warning sign to executives (locals and expats) there. You will get stabbed in the back.

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