Ask HN: Berlin - costs of living, python jobs? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Berlin - costs of living, python jobs?

58 pointszalew66 comments

Hi HN

I'm from Warsaw and as Germany is opening market for Polish workers the upcoming year, I'm considering Berlin as a destination - been there, love the city, like German people.

Could you give me some info:

1. cost of life and earnings, basically the same as in this topic http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1778185 (no Berlin there)

2. a quick view at the scene - are there any interesting companies, startups, etc. doing python?

3. popular job boards, message boards, where to look at? see nothing at djangogigs

View on HN

There are a lot of jobs in tech, but they mostly seem to be small companies trying to pay little. So to get by at 15€ a hour, you'll probably find a lot of offers.

Accommodation is cheap, I pay 400€ for 50sqm, a friend of mine pays 550 for 70sqm with 3 rooms. That's in a central part of town. In general, between 320 - 600 you can find a pretty reasonable place for a person to live alone.

Döner costs €2.50, a chinese meal off a stall costs €3.00, a restaurant meal in some small restaurant 5€ or 6€, in some normal restaurant maybe 9€ to 12€. Beer costs €3 in most clubs and bars, cocktails €4.50 to €8.00.

Transport costs €70 a month for the train? Not so sure about this. Parking is easy on the outskirts, but the very center of town you usually need to pay in a parkhouse.

Lots of english speaking people, and it's very popular for euro-immigrants (france, england, spain, etc), so a very western europe scene, and very easy to get by on english only.

Berlin generally has a bad work climate (I've heard people say), so if I were you, I'd apply for 10-20 jobs from Warsaw, then come over, stay a week in a ferienwohnung, do all the interviews and if you find one you like, move here. Moving without a job could put you under undue pressure. Warsaw is just 4 hours by train, is it not?

I believe there are a lot of young companies in Berlin, so I don't think the Airbus style jobs are really available here.

For the Airbus style of jobs perhaps you should consider Hamburg (similar costs, much smaller) because there you could find... Airbus. Not so international atmosphere, though, although the harbour is major local industry.

An added bonus is the local beach over the Elba :-)

I'd apply for 10-20 jobs from Warsaw, then come over, stay a week...

that's exactly what I'm going to do

so I don't think the Airbus style jobs are really available here

what is an 'airbus style job'? :)

Ableton, the company I work for, are based in Berlin and are looking for Python devs: http://www.ableton.com/jobs It's a really nice place to work, and the pay is OK for Berlin.

Great summary of cost of living and tech scene from maxklein. You can live very cheaply here, if you work at it. Some bars serve a half-litre of beer for 1€, some reasonable apartments can be got for 120€ a month if you can live with coal-fired heating.

The other tech company I know well is SoundCloud. They are great. They are mostly Ruby-based, but they're expanding the technology they use rapidly at the moment, so they might be flexible.

Good luck: Berlin is a fantastic place to live.

Ableton seems like it would be a great place to work. Enabling creative people appeals to me a lot more than putting yet another spin on social networking.

The Python jobs are web-related only though. While Python is used inside Live itself, it's not enough to justify a pure-Python coder position for that.

But the web-team is large enough to also offer more back-end related work, which is the reason we advertise Python-developers instead of Web-developers only.

I fear though that this is not really that much different from another spin on social networking in the end.

I fear though that this is not really that much different from another spin on social networking in the end.

I guess this is unavoidable in just about any web development job these days but at least the context is a little more intrinsically interesting at Ableton. At least to me.

Cubase user here cough Anyway I'd imagine that working for Ableton is fairly cool.

Although I am not qualified enough for such a position I am curious what requirements they have. I check your link and they ask for at least 2 years of experience. Is that "all" ?

As a CS drop out I can't even provide bachelor's degree. The point I am trying to make is: As far as I know here in Germany employees always ask for degrees. Am I way off?

Could I train myself the necessary skills and then work my way up and then some day I'd be qualified enough to work for a company like Ableton?

I'm the chap responsible for the Python developer hiring at Ableton.

To sum it up: I don't give a rats ass for any degrees. I don't even have one myself. We send applicants a programming test. I get these tests, and I assess them without even skimming the CV. Because it would otherwise just skew my observations.

If the test convinced me that you can code, you will have a job-interview, via phone or in person depending on if it's feasible to fly you in to Berlin or not.

This interview is pure technical, either.

If this convinced me that you are a good coder, I will arrange a third interview with the CTO, who has the final say on all employments. I won't spoil the enjoyment of that for you :)

Ableton Live fanboy here -- You guys are doing a great job. I haven't looked into it lately but what's the status on scripting Live (with Python or whichever language) ? I would kill to have an API I could use to create tracks programmatically.

[edit] sorry, re-read your post. You asked for any way, not python specifically.

The defined API for interacting with Live is Max For Live. Python is only used internally, and to a limited extend.

And for The Bridge, we introduced an XML-based document format, which should be a second option to generate live-sets.

Thank you for your fast reply which was quite revealing.

I've been into electronic music production & sounddesign for about 8 years now. But I never saw a way that this could somehow be helpful when it comes to finding a job.

Two terms of CS gave me some insight into programming but I mainly solved little mathematical problems rather than gaining insight into "real world software programming".

Now I am attending business school and try to figure out how to avoid a typical office job so that I can do something more rewarding, where I can be somewhat more myself, instead.

I should seriously get into programming in my spare time...

Sorry to everyone else for hijacking this thread. ;-)

€: just finished the video. Looks like an awesome working atmosphere indeed!

Hi, I have read the job descriptions and they sound really great. I have 2 questions:

1. I have left university 13 months ago and have worked for an online shopping company in Berlin ever since. I have done freelance development as a student, so is the 2 years experience an absolute must?

2. The hiring page is in English but would you like a German-style application (photo, lots and lots of certificates and grades) or the much shorter Anglicized version (3 pages max).

The 2 years are no strict requirement. If you apply for a job + I like your programming test, you are interviewed.

Regarding the CV: give us whatever you have. I personally won't read it, eventually somebody in HR might - but it's not used to filter applications.

The other day we even looked at a 20-year old highschool student, because he looked promising. Neither CV nor experience. We didn't take him for a bunch of reasons, but that's another story.

Hi! It's nice about the degree, I'm also a dropout. One question: is fluent german necessary, or can a newcomer speak english and learn on the way? I'm quite good at learning languages, but I suppose I won't speak fluently in the next few months :)

We gather around 20 nations under one roof - english is the main language.

We also offer german-courses for employees. And english for the germans ;)

nice! sounds really promissing :)

4th year EECS major here. I'm doing a 5 year bachelors/masters program. Do you typically take summer interns?

No. It makes no sense to us. Regardless of how good one is, the amount of time & effort until he or she is productive is a waste IMHO. And working with SCRUM makes it even harder, as there are no idling side-projects one can place a student on and then look at occasionally. All devlopers need to be real team members.

Yep, SoundCloud is great (so is Ableton!). While we are ruby-based at SoundCloud, we are definitely expanding and open to various backgrounds! So definitely visit the jobs page if you're interested: soundcloud.com/jobs.

Agree with Mary - Berlin is a fantastic place to live and very affordable in many areas. Great city with a growing start-up scene!

How many vacation days? I have relevant experience for SoundCloud (and also use and like Ableton) but I've recently decided I should probably try to visit my family more often.

Around 25, which is common in Germany.

This is something that is completely confusing to me. Berlin seems to have a lot of interesting Jobs with "fun" languages (ruby, python, even some scala, ...).

Down in the south (Stuttgart), it's all C or Java and most projects seem to be boring on the first look :-/

Ramen-style about 600€/month (living with a roommate, prepare your own meals -> maybe it could be even lower if don't go out at all, don't buy new clothes, ride a bike instead of public transportation... )

Have your own space, go out sometimes, take cab once in a while... about 1.200€+/month (obviously open end).

Add at least another 130€/month for health insurance.

Unfortunately I don't know about any python gigs but if you are familiar with RoR, let me know... As a freelancer (RoR) you should get something between 300€ - 800€ / day (deepending on your experience).

Update: For Startup-Jbs you might want to check out: http://www.deutsche-startups.de/startups-jobs/stellenangebot... (not only programming and not only Berlin).

Another place would be: http://www.jobisjob.de/berlin/ruby/jobs (Rubyjobs in Berlin)

You might also consider to get an (free) account at www.xing.com (kind of Germanys LinkedIn which is used by many recruiters).

If you would consider/interested in working for a non-profit (including non-profit pay ;-(, please check out www.betterplace.org or www.spenden.de (the later will relaunch soon). They are/will be done with RoR and are sometimes looking for programmers (mostly freelancers). If interested I might be able to help here.

Why health insurance? Surely the OP is covered in the EU if they get an EHIC? Or does that not apply for a permanent move?

No, it does not. If you pay taxes here, you have to have health insurance. For a permanent employee, this is about 14% of your salary. All in, I pay about a third of my income in tax (which includes health insurance).

but the 14% are split between yourself and your employer. only your part is taken directly off your paycheck.

Is that a cross-Europe thing then? My fiancée is Swedish but living in the UK with me; as far as I know she doesn’t pay any extra tax or have extra health-insurance.

googles

What kind of work visa do you need to do freelance work in Germany? How do you go about getting one without a sponsor?

I'm a ruby programmer and I'd be interested to relocate to Berlin for a while... Do you have something for me? Even just some suggestions on how to get a gig would be very appreciated.

This is my github account http://www.github.com/bolthar . My expertise with RoR is limited but I know ASP.NET MVC very well and they're similar.

Berlin is fairly cheap, cheaper than any other major city in western europe at least. Accommodation prices can vary widely, they can go from as little as 200 euros/months for a studio on the outskirts. I was paying 800 euros/month for a large one-bed flat in fairly central east berlin (P-Berg).

Lots of startups, probably some doing Python, not sure who off the top of my head. Most recruitment in Berlin seems to be done via social networks rather than via job boards, so your best bet might be to get involved with the startup community and get some leads from there.

"Most recruitment in Berlin seems to be done via social networks rather than via job boards."

Most hiring I've done in Berlin is via job boards.

Do you hire mainly in Germany? I'm curious about working abroad for a while (Australian work holiday, mainly) and am interested in the the opinions on hiring a US citizen.

I hire mainly in Germany - Berlin to be specific. So sorry, I haven't any opinions on hiring abroad.

1. cost depends on your location - central is no longer cheap 2. there are a lot of startups but I'm not sure which one is developing in python

try this map to find startups http://www.businesslocationcenter.de/de/B/iii/1/seite11.jsp

there seems to be a django Berlin group http://groups.google.com/group/django-berlin

Depends on what you mean with cheap.

Somewhat related...

As opposed to Berlin specifically, how should an American software engineer get a job in a different country? I'd like to experience different cultures and I'd like to move to another country (after finding a job) but I'm not sure how I should go about doing it.

Initially, I think western Europe is the most ideal place since I do not know any other languages, some place where many people spoke English would be ideal.

If anyone has any tips for how an American (with no foreign contacts, or fluency in other languages) can land a job in a western European country, I'd be very interested in hearing them.

In Scandinavia, language is a non-issue. Everyone speaks English, and many tech shops use English for all written communication.

Scandinavia and the Netherlands are easy destinations for Americans. Ordinary people speak good English for the most part, and even those who claim not to speak English actually understand the language quite well (mostly thanks to decades of exposure to subtitled American TV shows).

At least here in Finland, English has become the de facto working language at many companies and university departments. Nowadays there is almost always at least one non-Finn in any team, and nobody assumes that foreigners would ever learn Finnish. In large European countries like Germany and France, it's still often assumed that you'll adapt to their language and way of thinking (the French in particular will take it for granted that you're there to absorb the radiant glow of their superior cultural heritage ;)).

Northern Europe is also pretty good for finding IT jobs. Finland has Nokia, Sweden has Ericsson, Netherlands has Philips, Norway has... lots of oil money, I guess. And Denmark is simply a fun place. Take your pick ;)

Norway has Opera ;)

In the UK, English is (unsurprisingly) widely spoken, but it's a little different to the English you're used to.

Expect endless confusion over faggots (meatballs), football (soccer) and the myriad of ways to describe the weather.

They also speak English in Ireland, you can get by fine almost on English alone in most of Holland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and bits of Germany.

You'll probably find England the easiest to deal with and it makes a good base. Ireland is lovely but at the moment the job market isn't so great. The economy's very shaky here in England too, but people are hiring for tech jobs.

Your best bet is to try and get transferred through an international company, find a UK-based company that will sponsor a visa (hard, as there's plenty of tech workers here), or come over to study on a visa that will allow you to find work here after you graduate.

I'm an american, only speaking english, I've worked in Germany and work in the UK right now. Basically stick to the following areas:

1. Scandinavia/Nordic areas - Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland

2. UK - Obvious english speaking choice ;)

3. "Germanic" - Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland

Countries like France, Spain, Italy, etc are very difficult for a non-native speaker.

Getting a visa in the UK is quite difficult (especially because recent administration). Not sure about the other areas but I imagine its quite easy. My german stay was through a large corporation (40K+ employees) and my current work I had the difficulty of getting a tier 1 uk visa on my own.

What programming languages and business areas are you interested in?

Thanks for the initial responses.

Most of my experience is web development related, and my language of choice is Python (although I've used Ruby, C#, Java, PHP, C++, C). Though being a web developer isn't necessarily what I'd look for (I wouldn't mind it), I hope to find a job that offers more challenging computer science problems than merely cutting-pasting libraries to create a simple CRUD interface. However, I know that it'll be difficult to find a job in a new country and a job that really pushes my CS knowledge and forces me to learn, so I don't plan on being overly picky.

From the responses thus far, I realize that for someone hoping to go to a new country, I'll need to learn about VISAs and work-permits.

Beyond information about where I should look to find a job (which is very helpful), do you have any additional insight into how I should find one?

Are there specific European-focused tech job-boards/search engines I should browse? Are there any things I should avoid when contacting European companies, that might be common in job-hunting within the USA?

For the UK you can get a Tier-1 visa which operates on a points based system (if you google you can figure out for yourself if you get enough points to qualify), unfortunately they've introduced a quota system this year which makes it slightly trickier. Still you have a decent chance of getting one.

The advantage of the tier-1 visa is that it doesn't tie you to a particular employer, your free to work for whoever you want as long as your salary meets a minimum level. It also means you can apply to any tech company without having to worry about if they'd be willing to sponsor you, etc.

The financial sector in London is a huge employer of developers and if your looking for hardcore CS stuff might be a good place to look, and most banks are happy to sort out visa stuff on your behalf because they have whole teams dedicated to that stuff.

Most of the UK tech job boards are dominated by recruiters, so your best bet might just be finding some tech company you're interested in and looking at their homepage for job opportunities.

I'm currently in the process of launching a developer job board for the UK (http://www.coderstack.co.uk), but it's still very early days so I don't have very many job listings at the moment.

Yes, learning about visa/work permits is a lengthy process. If you want me to explain to you the UK one feel free to drop me a line at mbesto AT gmail.

My company (IT consulting company, mainly in ERP tech) may have something...I don't know specifically but they have their hands in everything from online MMO to betting website development to big ERP tech. We also have a partner recruiting company, could put you in contact there as well.

Glad to hear you want to get intl experience. I can't recommend it enough. There are some restrictions I have to deal with as foreigner but otherwise it's a great way to see the world.

sidenote - literally just started learning Python myself and love it so far.

Singapore. English speaking. Modern clean safe beautiful city. Mostly banking and finance here. Something like 2% unemployment, 15% economic growth this year. Lots of Westerners (and Indians, Chinese, Malay, Phillipinos, Indonesians, etc hugely diverse). Little India, Chinatown. Very easy to get a work visa. Low taxes. Tropical island. Can be as cheap as $50 to fly to Bali and a weekend of surfing. All of Southeast Asia a few hours flight away.

On the bad side:

* Freaking hot. You will get used to it after about 8 months.

* Expensive apartments. Not as bad as SF or NYC, but getting up there.

* Despite being a decent size city, it often has a conservative, small town atmosphere.

* Asia loves status and brand names and leans towards Java and .Net and industrial programming and tends to look down on scripting languages

Hong kong is probably good to look at too. Bigger more interesting city but like everywhere, has its drawbacks too of course.

Singapore is also a police state, if you care about such things. Some choice quotes from the US Department of State:

Singapore has a mandatory death penalty for many narcotics offenses.

Singapore police have the authority to compel both residents and non-residents to submit to random drug analysis.

There are no jury trials in Singapore. Judges hear cases and decide sentencing.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1017.html#c...

I think their preferred term is "managed democracy".

Its true there is not as much political freedom in Singapore as there is in the West. Its also true there is not as much economic freedom in the West as there is in Singapore.

Singapore's judicial system is consistently ranked in the top 2 in Asia and usually in the top 10 globally, often ahead of places like the US and Germany. http://app.subcourts.gov.sg/Data/Files/File/Research/issue29...

I'm an American who has lived in Singapore almost 2 years. The Singapore government delivers good, fair, cost efficient government, a high standard of living, and is responsive to citizens. This is incomprehensible to Westerners who have been taught to believe that democracy is the only system that works. Western democracy is great and does a decent job. I believe Singapore's government is better in many or most cases. Here is a list of ways that Singapore's government is better than most or all Western governments:

- easier to start a business

- lower unemployment

- higher economic growth

- less corruption (private and government)

- lower, simpler taxes

- less paperwork (everything is online)

- less crime

The People's Action Party has a long history of suing political opponents for defamation and bankrupting them with judgements handed down by the courts. This contradicts your claims that (1) Singapore has a good judicial system and (2) Singapore's government has less corruption. To be frank I don't think you have the correct picture of Singapore's government at all and you've been taken in like so many others. Order and peace in Singapore is bought by corruption and intimidation behind the scenes.

The following essay on the subject is worth your time: http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_democracy/v006/6.3br....

I accept Singapore is not a democracy and has less political free speech than the West. That doesn't make it corrupt. Singapore is ranked the 5th least corrupt country in the world. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/gov_cor-government-corrupt....

The PAP sues its opponents for defamation. Has your government ever done anything worse?

You mention one small piece of the pie of justice: political free speech. What about property rights, banking law, business law, immigration law, tax law, criminal law, etc? I think you need to show a much broader pattern of abuse to say the judicial system isn't fair.

I'm actually a libertarian. Its taken some time for me to reconcile that with my support of Singapore. Basically, I believe Singapore is more free than most Western countries although sometimes in different ways.

You can quibble about minor issues, but in my experience the government delivers good service, safe streets, a growing economy, and opportunity to the vast majority of Singaporeans.

I'm not sure how you think anyone could take you seriously when you call the systemic suppression of political opponents a "minor issue".

I assume you feel the suppression of political opponents is a major issue because it causes a government to become corrupt, abusive, and make bad decisions without the accountability that comes from criticism and competition. I agree.

But Singapore has made good decisions and hasn't been abusive or corrupt. (No government is without sin or without mistakes, so I mean Singapore isn't abusive or corrupt compared to the US and Europe.) Their economy has boomed, their standard of living has risen dramatically in a short period of time. Aren't you curious about how they did it?

Political systems have evolved and improved throughout history and will continue to do so. Western democracy is not the best government that will ever exist on Earth.

The 2005 Quality of Life Index from The Economist

1. Ireland

2. Switzerland

3. Norway

...

11. Singapore

...

13. US

...

17. Japan

...

26. Germany

...

29. UK

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-Life_Index

I can speak about Denmark from an expat point of view. I moved here 6 months ago. I dont speak Danish at all and I am not very good in English, so far, the language has not been a problem, even many tv shows are in English with Danish subs.

There are many .Net jobs here, and not so many doing Ruby or Python. You can take a look at the job offers in http://it-jobbank.dk or http://stepstone.dk.

The living expensives are really high here.

I cant tell about work visa because I am a EU citezen, so the rules are different.

If you have any question about Denmark or Spain, just drop me a line.

It is definitely possible to find work in Europe as an American.

I'm an American who was originally sent to the UK to help open an office there. I later was hired by another company to come work in Oslo, where I am now. Scandinavia in general is very easy to find work (they have a strong need for educated people in IT areas - development, support, etc). Getting a job in the UK is certainly possible, but the paperwork is much more of a hassle (30-60 pages depending on the type of visa compared to 4 pages for Norway).

Pretty much everyone here speaks English, although depending on the company you may be strongly encouraged to learn the local language. The plus side of that, though, is that they will often pay for the classes.

Finding the job itself is going to be more difficult just because the job postings may be in the local language and on local sites, but you can use Google to translate them decently. For Norway, the best place to start is finn.no.

I had the option of moving to Berlin or finding something else, and whilst I liked some aspects of Berlin, eventually decided not to move there. Of course, everyone is different but the relevant points to the question are:

1) whilst it is cheap - and rent is included in that statement - it is also big and low density. I felt that I wouldn't want to live away from the central, fashionable areas as the rest of the city feels a bit deserted. Living there probably adds 500EUR/month to your costs.

2) most of the "entrepreneurial" action seems to be in the arts. I didn't see lots of technology and/or international companies e.g. if things don't work out for you.

I have a friend from Berlin running a technoloogy company who loves it there though - and he seems to be able to hire a reasonable amount of talent. And some people don't mind the commute/quiet life as much as me.

Point (1) does not fit with my experience here at all. Kreuzberg is central, cheap and very lively.

What's a rough range for web/python programmer salaries in Berlin. Any idea?

I lived in Germany for a couple of years, most of the time in Hamburg, but I used to go Berlin quite often.

The cost of living in Berlin is very variable. I love Kreuzberg, you have good and cheap options to dinner for ~10 euros (e.g around Görlitzer Bahnhof you have some good vietnamese and indian resturants). The rent should be around 250 - 350 E a room. In east berlin you can find cheaper pelaces to live in.

I dont know about job post, but just contact the Berlin Python User Group. I am sure they can give you some good advices about it. The mailing list dont look very acttive, but I am sure is still the best place to start (http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/python-berlin)

I can only write from my perspective, 110qm are around 950 EUR including heating, but this is a more expensive part of town (not the most expensive though). Fairly cheap compared to other large cities in Germany.

There are many tech jobs, most companies are hiring.

As a developer you might make 35-60k EUR a year, depending on the company and your skills.

Transport is currently 72 EUR a month.

Meals are around 5 EUR for lunch, 10 EUR or above in the evening. Pizza is below 10 EUR. Beer is around 3 EUR.

I might add: Freelancer is 500 EUR to 1000 EUR (and above) a day depending on your skills (obviously ;-)

I have to ask... Doing what exactly can get you constantly 500-1000 EUR per day? I know a lot of good programmers that earn that much per month, so this daily estimate (especially for a freelancer) seems way too high to me.

Programming Java and C#, database development etc. It usually is not for more than some months, people would usually negotiate a lower price if the duration of the project/work is longer.

Oops, I totally forgot about this.

Thanks for sharing your experience... It differs a lot from mine.

Regarding where to look for jobs, I'd suggest stepstone.de, heise.de/jobs and also xing.com (a LinkedIn-like site with more german users - the Python and Django groups also have a dedicated forum for jobs).

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