The Price 20-Somethings Pay to Live in the City | Hacker News Reader

The Price 20-Somethings Pay to Live in the City

nytimes.com

51 pointsfun2have50 comments

My summary and thoughts: Living in NYC is amazingly expensive. When you're lower on the totem pole of the working world, your income doesn't reflect this greater expense on a percentage basis. Sometimes its worth it in the long term for additional opportunities and later career progress, but for millions it likely turns out to be a net loss compared to living somewhere more reasonable.

Its very possible to have an unpaid internship (whereas you might get paid minimally for the same internship in other cities) that lasts for months , where the employer has no intention of providing the possibility of fulltime employment at the end. This is exceedingly common in the recording industry. Everyone wants an intern, but no one cares to pay the best ones a fulltime wage afterward. Your living expenses may easily be 2-4x higher than where you came from.

Unpaid internship in NYC = way to weed out qualified folks who don't come from money already.

So basically unpaid internship are just class filters ?

In a lot of industries, I believe that to deliberately be the case.

> In a lot of industries, I believe that to deliberately be the case.

Maybe a simpler way of looking at this might be that given a large pool of potential applicants the incentive to actually pay these people simply isn't there if a large enough percentage of the pool doesn't require payment.

It's still the same brutally unfair result, but it doesn't require looking for conspiracy.

Not necessarily true. I saved up enough money from an old job and sold my car to move to NY two years ago. I took an unpaid internship that lasted 2 months. Was hired on as freelance and eventually bumped to salary.

It's sorta like politics. Sure, third-party candidates can make it through at times, but the system is heavily weighted against them.

Aren't unpaid internships illegal? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html

So's medical marijuana, on a Federal level. No enforcement, no effect.

Not if you can get at least one credit at your college/university.

No. As the article you link says:

...[there are] six federal legal criteria that must be satisfied for internships to be unpaid. Among those criteria are that the internship should be similar to the training given in a vocational school or academic institution, that the intern does not displace regular paid workers and that the employer “derives no immediate advantage” from the intern’s activities — in other words, it’s largely a benevolent contribution to the intern.

The vast majority of unpaid internships don't meet those criteria.

Very few internships provide "no immediate advantage" to the company where the intern is working. For instance, if you were a publisher, and had an intern read unsolicited manuscripts and rate them, and then used those ratings to decide which manuscripts to read, that would be questionable. If, on the other hand, the intern were told to read the manuscripts that have already been accepted and the ones that have already been rejected, so as to learn what makes a good manuscript, that would be OK. That's not benefiting you--it is just providing training to the intern.

Essentially, from what I've read, it seems that what you need to give an unpaid intern is work that you don't actually need to have done, and have no use for.

My story is kind of the opposite, but I wouldn't have the savings to be working full time on my startup without doing the shared room thing for a year. And it was $600 a month in SF too, and that was for a room with friends who were willing to give me a good deal.

Indeed. Penelope Trunk writes about this: http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/06/11/do-you-belong-in-ny... and http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2006/08/10/im-moving-out-of-ne... . If you want to live in New York City, you're effectively shortening your personal "runway" to use Paul Graham's term.

(responding to cletus about New Jersey)

There is a cluster effect to our social lives that is just as important as the clustering effect that puts the epi-center of certain industries in particular geographic spots (for instance, the movie industry is centered in LA, the software startup industry is centered in the Valley, etc). To be specific: a lot of the parties that I want to go to are in Brooklyn, but none of them are in New Jersey. If I go to a party in Brooklyn, and then at 3 AM I am heading home, then for me getting home is just a 15-20 minute taxi ride. Whereas if I live in New Jersey, getting home from Brooklyn is at least an hour of trains and buses and walking.

This point would be moot if there were an equal number of parties in New Jersey that I wanted to go to (and therefore getting home to Brooklyn, from New Jersey, would also be a big ordeal) but there are none. I've never been invited to a party in New Jersey that I wanted to go to. Even when I lived in New Jersey, all the social events that I wanted to go to were either in Manhattan or Brooklyn. So, for me, it makes a lot more sense to live in Brooklyn.

I could maybe see living in New Jersey if the rents were dramatically lower, but they are not. I have a little studio apartment in Brooklyn that I pay $1,100 a month for, and in New Jersey I might pay $900 for an apartment of the same size. The extra $200 a month is just not worth it to me, not when the real cost involves being an hour further away from the social life that I want to have.

Not that I'm a 20-something, but I assume the logic is the same for them as it is for me.

Living in NYC isn't too bad compared to other big cities, unless you only think of NYC as Manhattan. The other boroughs offer cheaper (and safe) rent as long as you are willing to search a bit.

From the article, 600 for a bedroom in the notoriously dangerous Bedford-Stuyvesant doesn't sound like either Manhattan or cheap.

Have you been to Bed-Stuy recently? It's actually pretty decent and getting gentrified. Cafes, open eateries, fruit shops mixed in the regular stores. 'Checkers' burgers even opened there recently.

I know, since I've been there lot this summer. I also have been watching the crime maps since I'm doing research for house hunting. Crimes in the Bed-Stuy are rare compared to the surrounding areas.

Four years ago, my best friend and I were paying 1850 for a two bedroom, one bath in Astoria. It had cockroaches, the power would go out if we plugged too many things in, and it was four avenue blocks from the train.

I'm not saying living in New York is bad, especially if you're single in your 20's, but financially it made no sense to me and I'm glad I moved.

This is an important distinction. NYC != Manhattan. There are 4 other boroughs to explore and in post-9/11 NYC I find the outer boroughs are simply more interesting. Manhattan has become this caricature of its former self which I frankly find to be boring.

Another note (somewhat unrelated to your comment). I am 23 so I consider most of the cases to be my peers (although I have a job). I'm in a living situation similar to the people featured in this article. I have three roommates and I pay less than 600 for a large room in a large apartment in East Williamsburg. The one thing is, I'm not complaining. I'm also not sure if a majority of the people in this piece are. Living in Manhattan is just not a reasonable, or an enjoyable, option IMO.

Seriously? I put up with this shit from 30-somethings all the time, the "Oh, Manhattan is boring, oh the City isn't what it used to be, blah, blah, blah. . . "

You're 23. In 2001 you were 14, you have no fucking idea what the scene was like in Manhattan back then and in no way can compare it to what it's like now. Waxing nostalgic about the 80s or early 90s? Sure, I can see that because the city was a very different place (though not nearly as different as people like to tell themselves it was). But take the faux "oh shit was good then it got bad" routine and stuff it.

I am simply pointing out that Manhattan is kind of boring, I don't really care if it was boring or not in the early 80s either. New York has changed drastically since I was a child and I can see that clearly. I was born at NYU Medical Center and I've been in New York for my whole life, so I'd like to think I can formulate an opinion about how the city has changed. I remember squeegee men, how Giuliani seemingly eradicated homelessness in one fell swoop, and New York before it's intense Disneyfication. My first home at Stuyvensant Town was bought by MetLife and is now being marketed as luxury condos. I have plenty to be nostalgic about. Lastly, I'm not certain what "scene" you are referring to. This article is not about tech in NYC and I never claimed to be commenting about tech. You should take your really aggressive vibe "and stuff it".

Stuy Town wasn't bought by Metlife. They were the original developer and sold it in 2006.

So I guess the rent is too damn high?

Was it just me or was the author's continual use of "Mr. Cavin Quezada" incredibility annoying? Please switch it up some....Mr. Quezada......Cavin...... anything would be better than repeating "Mr. Cavin Quezada."

1) "Mr. Cavin Quezada, who works as an unpaid intern...."

2) "Before this I was living in a loft in Bushwick,” said Mr. Cavin Quezada....

3) "Mr. Cavin Quezada often works until 2 a.m......"

4) "...I’ve given her enough details for her to worry,” Mr. Cavin Quezada said.

5) Mr. Cavin Quezada’s situation mirrors the way....

Sorry, but I stopped reading at "his mom pays his rent".

I understand the downvotes -- after all that someone's parents pay for their rents shouldn't necessarily disqualify that person's viewpoint, right?

But, after living here for almost a decade, after paying my way through NYU ($100k to go! Wheee!), after watching disgusting situations (like an 24 year old account "executive's" mother call her boss to complain about the hours she was working), I have to strain every muscle in my body not to immediately disqualify kid's (because the good majority are just that, kids) who's parents pay the rent.

those prices seem kinda low

my sister is moving to nyc at the end of the month, and all the places she found were 2-3K/mo...she'll most likely go with this one place that's $1,250/mo with a roommate for a 2bdr apartment.

Granted she is set on living in Manhattan(Midtown) near her job, so it's a lot more expensive there.

But that's why her job pays her 15-20K more compared to what she'd get outside the city

She is also probably getting a full apartment, and notsomuch just a room.

There's a significant price differentiation between living in Manhattan and in other boroughs. One really can't lump them all together.

I have friends that pay $6-700/mo for rooms in reasonable apartments in convenient locations in Brooklyn (e.g. off the Lorimer L stop, less than 10 mins from Union Square). Rents have also significantly gone down in NYC in the past two years. I had mine decreased by 12% last year and it hasn't gone up since.

Even within Manhattan there can be huge differences across the island for otherwise comparable properties, particularly as you go north of the park.

10 minutes to Lorimer? It's 20 minutes minimum just to Bedford. And that's when the trains are running frequently and efficiently. There have been plenty of times when the L train's taken over an hour to get just to Bedford.

And that doesn't include the walk from the station to your home, which could easily be 10 or more minutes away from the L stop.

What I'm curious about is why no mention is made of living across the Hudson (ie New Jersey).

I know New Yorkers like to look down on NJ and I guess the Times is complicit in that but the PATH trains make the commutes to Midtown and Downtown much shorter than the outer boroughs.

Plus NJ has lower taxes. And no "Amazon tax" (at least not yet).

So perhaps this article should be titled "the price 20somethings pay not to appear uncool", for which I have very litte sympathy.

It's still a considerable commute.. restaurants/bars/clubs are not nearly as good... then there's art galleries/concerts/other events... etc.

Not saying it's a bad place to live, just for 20-somethings those things matter a lot.

I lived in Hoboken and worked in Manhattan for years with a shorter commute than most folks who either lived in Manhattan or Brooklyn. 10 minutes apartment->PATH, 11 mins PATH (Hoboken to WTC), 10 minutes WTC-> Wall & Water sts.

Where in NJ?

Hoboken, Jersey City, Newark, and Newport are pretty crime-ridden.

What neighborhoods would you recommend that are within a 5 to 10 minute walk from a PATH train stop, that are cheaper than Manhattan, and also safe?

Hoboken, Jersey City, Newark, and Newport are pretty crime-ridden.

I believe that much like the crime stories about NYC, the crime situation is overstated and/or outdated.

Personally I'd suggest around Hoboken or Grove St (in Jersey City).

Hoboken is crime-ridden?? I spent 6 years there from 1996-2002 and have friends that still live there and can say that crime is not an issue in almost all of Hoboken. Sure, if you go to the projects on the back end of Hoboken things get rougher, but I never, ever felt unsafe there.

Even JC has cleaned up a lot, especially the areas by the PATH trains like Exchange place and Newport.

"Hoboken, Jersey City, Newark, and Newport are pretty crime-ridden." I live in Hoboken, in a part called "The Presidents" which 15 years ago used to be really unsafe. This is one of the worst parts of Hoboken, easily.

But it is not anymore, and I'd ask where your facts of "crime ridden" come from. I pay a good amount for a two bedroom condo in a sea of condos. I live a block from the "worst" project in Hoboken, and routinely walk around there at night. Hoboken is not crime ridden.

Paulus Hook, Exchange Place-area, Journal Square and Newport (all Jersey City) are all quite safe. As you go further from the River, it can get dodgier.

The idea of living in NJ/working in NYC sounds nice and lots of people with families do it, but as as 20-something in NYC (Brooklyn for me) I thought about it but can't imagine actually doing this. It is nothing to do with appearing "cool" to other people but for practical reasons. Don't underestimate the importance of having a social life and all your friends/co-workers/other connections living in the same area as you. Plus who wants to take the train after every time you go out drinking instead of just walking back to your place.

Also, it doesn't seem like the people in the article are looking for any sympathy.

I totally understand this mindset... I had it, too. And so I lived in Carroll Gardens and Cobble Hill and paid through the teeth for tiny, mouse infested holes.

But, I think that the NYC-to-NJ barrier does tend to be just that, a mindset. Because after all -- you still have to take a train back to Brooklyn, no? And its not like Hoboken doesn't have a street-filling, bar hopping main street. As for friends and what not -- the startup I work for: No one person lives with 15 minutes of another (in the technical team.) NYC is spread out enough that I think it is rare to have a ton of friends living close by, unless you're living in the trendy parts.

It has been my experience (after moving to Hoboken) that any "negative" that people perceive about Hoboken is either just made up (they've never visited Hoboken) or, and this I totally understand, is "I don't want to live in Jersey." Which is why I say I'm still a New Yorker.

err... Hoboken, Jersey city are not exactly "affordable" either...

"... he pays $500 a month and has a 10-by-6-foot bedroom. But as for the neighborhood, he is less enthusiastic. ..."

Given the demand and patchy supply, is there any service that caters to this market allowing renters to choose a place to match size, price & location?

"In Bushwick, I never really felt threatened. Now, the sounds around are more aggressive. I’ll see 20 guys ride by on motorcycles"

The whole article is hilarious, but this is especially funny. Sometimes I see 20 people ride by in cars. Hide!

Cars don't tend to be nearly as loud.

I saw crews of idiots doing wheelies up and down the street when I lived in Harlem on 146th St. and didn't feel particularly threatened.

> “We had a mouse,” she acknowledged. “But if you live on the Lower East Side, you’ll always have a mouse.”

I live on Lower East Side, and I've never had a mouse. Having a cat helps ;)

Obvious news is obvious. It's all economics.

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