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Comment by pretendscholar | Hacker News Reader

There's a saying that pets look like their masters and I think the same is true for entrepreneurs and their cities. Musk is the perfect embodiment of LA flim-flam.

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I get that Musk is a controversial figure and that this event was a debacle, but I dont know how you can ignore SpaceX and Tesla, both arguably the most successful companies in their fields right now by some metrics.

SpaceX is fine, although it's running at leaner margins than competitors; as long as it can scale well and beef that up, it'll be about average for an aerospace company.

Tesla is a terrible mess, and only by Silicon Valley standards can it be considered successful at all. It is not even close to being "the most" successful car company.

This is why Musk is a controversial figure; he's a Valley-style startup hype man operating in the wider world. Whether that approach is sustainable is what the fighting is about.

Tesla is the most successful EV car company. Everybody else was making toys with 50Mi range, 25MPH top speed, or chasing hydrogen fuel cells.

Nissan is the most successful EV car company.

The operative word here is was. Everybody else was making toys. They aren't now.

Tesla might be the most impactful EV company, in that you can make an argument that what Tesla did (and, to be frank, what they talked about before they did it) changed was to is, but Nissan, GM, and Hyundai are all making EVs that are decidedly not "toys" and Tesla's advantages in the EV space (not necessarily the creature-comforts space, but a big reason why I won't buy a Tesla and am buying a Hyundai Kona EV is because I don't want a giant tablet screen as my instrument panel) are shrinking.

You realise that the Nissan Leaf predates the Model S? Before the Leaf, yes, everyone was making toys. The two most compelling were the electric Smart car and the Tesla roadster, but both were terribly impractical.

Sure his outbursts and the drama around it on social media were a farce, but how exactly is it anything less than praiseworthy that a bunch of engineers on the other side of the world attempted to solve a problem that had the potential to save a dozen lives?

In practical terms, Must and his team did an order of magnitude more than you and I for the boys, and I don't understand why you have nothing but hate for him and the effort.

The biggest argument against I've read was that the online drama took attention and resources away from the people in the cave. I find that absolutely absurd. The rescue team weren't checking their social media or waiting on Musk, or distracted in any way by the online drama.

As far as I can tell, Musk's efforts did no material damage to the rescue effort, and could potentially have saved a dozen lives if he'd been given the correct parameters to begin with.

Further, the solution the engineering came up with has the potential to work for future rescue attempts.

Are you perchance suffering from tall-poppy syndrome?

I think publicly calling one of the rescuers a paedophile without grounds sunk Musk permanently on this one, regardless of the excellent but unusable engineering solution provided by his nootropicly charged ego.

It was a horrible choice of insult, but to be fair, the rescuer was a real asshole to him for no good reason (this isn't a defence of the insult, just saying that Musk was justifiably furious).

Why would you attack some guy trying to help you achieve your goal of rescuing the trapped boys, and call him names on international tv.

It's really not clear at all that Musk did anything other than get in the way.

Trying to help and getting in the way instead isn't praiseworthy.

I addressed that claim in my earlier comment.

> The biggest argument against I've read was that the online drama took attention and resources away from the people in the cave. I find that absolutely absurd. The rescue team weren't checking their social media or waiting on Musk, or distracted in any way by the online drama.

Has anyone in the cave said that some engineers on the other side of the world were holding them up or in some way impeding their efforts? I find it extremely hard to believe that some shitty twitter drama got in the way of cave rescue efforts.

I believe one of the divers did. Then Musk accused him of having sex with children.

That was not what happened. The tweet is here:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-28/elon-musk-says-cave-r...

I thought it was obvious, that it was a clever dig at a guy he was fighting with (as much as idiots can fight on twitter, cough trump). Something about a guy with a hard on for getting to some kids. I'm sure Elon was high. I REALLY don't understand the HN brigade trying to imagine it into more than that.

There's plenty of reason to go after some of Elon's money to keep the fame train going, but it wouldn't go anywhere in the US. In the UK? They are big on curbing particular kinds of speech and behavior. He has a good shot at getting the money.

Edit: I am wrong, that's why.

From your link:

> he later urged a BuzzFeed News reporter in an August 30 email to investigate Mr Unsworth and "stop defending child rapists".

That's not an accusation (or defamation) either. Sheesh.

How is "stop defending child rapists" not suggesting the person is a child rapist, doubling down on the initial claim? (which was in bad taste, but wouldn't have been to big a deal if he'd not stuck by it)

That's a circumstantial partial quote from an email, editorialized, that fits the narrative. That's how. I really don't understand how this is confusing. I mean, I'm willing to read the email where he makes an accusation, but you would think that would be helpful evidence in the case presented.

well, then read it in context: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/elon-musk-thai-...

The claims are quite specific.

Didn't Elon later tweet something along the lines of "He must be an actual pedo because he hasn't sued me for libel yet?" Can't say I blame the guy for suing after that.

Some of the very specific things Musk said also seem a bit too specific for just joking around. "He’s an old, single white guy from England who’s been traveling to or living in Thailand for 30 to 40 years, mostly Pattaya Beach, until moving to Chiang Rai for a child bride who was about 12 years old at the time."

> Why would you attack some guy trying to help you achieve your goal of rescuing the trapped boys, and call him names on twitter

Something I've been wondering about too.

>> Why would you attack some guy trying to help you achieve your goal of rescuing the trapped boys, and call him names on twitter

>Something I've been wondering about too.

Because it was a distracting and transparent PR stunt designed to nothing other than stroke Musk's ego.

So on top of everything else, Musk has such anger management issues that he can't avoid being sued for libel and making a fool of himself in the media? You're not really helping your case.

There are very few people in the world that can dive like these guys do. If I was that good at something, having some Silicon Valley billionaire show up to "help" with some outrageously stupid idea, that would also piss me off. Although he should have known better than to throw the first punch.

> some outrageously stupid idea

Citation needed. It was a great idea, and vastly superior to the method they actually used to get the kids out. Of course it turned out not to fit, but that just means the cave diver who was in communication with Musk gave him incorrect data in the first place.

The divers themselves said it was a great risk bringing them out and the only reason they eventually took the risk they did was because the rain continued and it was feared that the water level would rise.

You can be the best diver in the world, but have no idea how to handle panicked kids who have no dive training. Sticking them in a tube and dragging them out would have been far safer than the method that luckily worked. You and the douchebag diver who attacked Musk for offering help would both be singing a different tune right now had a couple of the kids drowned on the way out.

That douchebag diver did succeed though. There were like a dozen people involved that were the best in the world at what they do and that's the plan they came up with and it worked. US and Thai navy seals couldn't do any better. Maybe if Harry was an engineer / cave diver instead of an anaesthesiologist / cave diver they would have come up with the submarine idea.

> that just means the cave diver who was in communication with Musk gave him incorrect data in the first place

Citation needed?

I saw and touched Musk's "submarine" which was on display at a science expo in Bangkok I went to a few months ago. It was sort of underwhelming. It was just a metallic tube with some handles on the sides and a thick acrylic removable plate on one end that had a few air fittings screwed into it. I'm sure there was some engineering that went into it. But it certainly did not look like rocket science was involved.

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