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Comment by ggm | Hacker News Reader

Oh for Pete's sake: what Scotsman doesn't know about bothies? If you read oor Willie or the broons what is "the but and Ben" if not a bothie?

(I've stayed in some lowland ones, cycling clubs keep them but the best are all mountain high. New Zealand Bach and a French gite are different)

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> Oh for Pete's sake: what Scotsman doesn't know about bothies?

It's a New York newspaper. Even if every Scotsman did know about bothies, which they don't, then it's still relevant for this newspaper isn't it?

It's a terrible attitude to put things down as 'but who doesn't know this already'. I'm sure there are things the author of this article would consider everyone should know that you don't.

For me it's the uniquely American parochialism of these type of articles that grates: 'Hey look guys, I found out that there is actually a world outside America, and in this strange exotic world there are places, and people, and even things!!!!'

Bizarre comment, the entire world does this to the rest of the world all the time. It tends to be called travel writing.

Yeah this article isn't that so hackles down. Its someone writing a charming description of a tradition which is most likely completely unknown to their target audience.

Also - the fact that Americans have not taken the time to find out what a Bothy is before now should cause no great offence to anyone. I'm a brit who lived for around a decade in Northumberland and although I know the word bothy I certainly have never seen one.

I don’t see any suggestion that Scottish people don’t know about them. This is a travel article in a US newspaper read around the world. “Little known” is likely fair, given the mostly non-European readership.

Spellcheck on my phone (USA model Samsung) wants to replace "bothie" with "brothel".

Spellcheck in my eyes did it well enough.

O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us To see oursels as ithers see us! It wad frae mony a blunder free us, An' foolish notion: What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us, An' ev'n devotion!

ye wantin pumped, aye?

My heart's in the Highlands, my heart is not here,
My heart's in the Highlands, a-chasing the deer;
Chasing the wild-deer, and following the roe,

My heart's in the Highlands, wherever I go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Heart%27s_in_the_Highlands

A but and ben isn't a bothie, though. But and ben means a two-roomed cottage. A bothie is basic shelter for anyone to use. A bothie would be free but a but and ben is most likely a private residence.

That's right - a but and a ben is specifically a two bedroomed house (the but is the outer public room with the kitchen and the ben is the inner room with the beds), and a bothy normally a single roomed shelter. I'd normally associate a but and a ben with a crofthouse[0].

[0] http://www.shetlandheritageassociation.com/members/south-mai...

I very much doubt Scotsmen are the target audience for this article. And the subject matter doesn't focus exclusively on Scotland, either.

I know the "no true Scotsman" fallacy is bandied around here a lot but I don't think I've ever seen a more literal example than this. ;)

I don’t think the but n ben the Broons visit is a Bothy. Iirc they owned it (or at least rented it) and it was pretty well kitted out. Bothies tend to be pretty Spartan and are just freely available, not owned or for hire

Random aside - the But n ben is also the name of a nice little restaurant a little just outside of Arbroath.

Quite a few places I heard called bothie were privately owned by curious share communities. Up by the headwaters of the iron bru springs around moffat (I know... not really but it was amazingly ferrous water) there were a few shacks we called that way. And down cockburnspath.

Sure. Up in the hills, for serious climbers and walkers? Different story. But bothies included Shephard's huts, and working mens fishing camps and all kinds of things.

What do you think "the butt and ben" looked like before maw broon got some carpets off the rag and bone man and paw broon got that auld sofa?

If you want to be pedantic, yes the working class lowland "hutters" were different. I guess that's what I'm talking about. Colloquially people call these places bothies. It it's not part of the MBA hill stuff, for sure.

> Quite a few places I heard called bothie were privately owned

Aren't all bothies privately owned? What other ownership would there be?

I'm pretty sure they are all privately owned by the landowner (usually a sporting estate, although some are in areas owned by conservation groups e.g. Ryvoan) - even if they are maintained by the Mountain Bothies Association.

NB The default in Scots law is for any building to belong to the landowner even if someone else builds it so even if someone did build a hut somewhere it would still end up being owned by whoever owns the land.

France has "refuges", but the word mushes a wide variety of accommodations together. Around Chamonix "refuges" will be full-service hotels sitting above glaciers, resupplied by helicopter. But most of the refuges, in most of the Alps, are just the same as bothies : small, romantic, cold, smelling of smoke and damp limestone, often maintained by a few men who once got up there alone for a whole month to rebuild old walls, and a great place to make serendipitous friends.

NZ does have huts, which are much more similar. See: https://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-recreation/places-to-stay/...

Although there's also private ones as well.

NZ’s huts are generally more luxurious than Bothies, though not in all cases!

“Little known” should perhaps be “little known in America”?

I'm an American who's never been to Scotland, and even I know it's spelled "Oor Wullie." :)

Clearly Scotsman were not the target audience. What made you think it was?

People reading this article probably have no fucking clue what: oor Willie or the broons what is "the but and Ben" even means. I don't even know how to parse those random combination of words.

You'd have to have bought the Sunday Post for a while. The Broons (Browns) and Oor (Our) Willie are cartoons in it. Same Scottish firm that gave generations of British kids the Dandy and Beano comics with Desperate Dan and Dennis the Menace etc.

A but n ben is a two roomed stone cottage. The cartoon Broons had one.

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