Comment by alexk | Hacker News Reader

Comment by alexk | Hacker News Reader

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That's my feedback on TICK as well, it's pretty hard to debug and implement something like this:

https://github.com/gravitational/monitoring-app/blob/master/...

I looked at flux, and it seems pretty compatible with TICK script, although I don't have a clear understanding on how to make it easy to write alerts/queries and debug them yet.

I would be curious to try out REPL:

> We plan to provide a flux command line program that exposes a REPL and talks to various data sources.

Especially interested to see how easy it would be to edit and troubleshoot a multi-line transformation query like this one in it:

   cpu = data 
       // only get the last 5m of data
       |> range(start: -5m)
       // only get the "usage_user" data from the _measurement "cpu"
       |> filter(fn: (r) => r._measurement == "cpu" and r._field == "usage_user")

Why create a new language vs using javascript or lua?

e.g. your flux example above could have been just:

   let cpu = data.range({start: "-5m"}).filter(func(r){return r.measurement == "cpu" && r.field == "usage_user"})

Is there any specific feature of flux that requires a new language? I read your blog post here:

https://www.influxdata.com/blog/why-were-building-flux-a-new...

and it brings some valid points on Flux vs SQL, however I would be interested how would it compare as Flux vs Javascript or Flux vs Lua :)

There isn't a specific feature of Flux that requires a new language, although part of the language is a query planner and optimizer that is tied to certain functions in it. Technically any Turing complete language is equivalent, but in practice that is seldom true. Performance is one vector, but so is expressiveness, aesthetics, ease of use, etc.

We chose not to use Lua because it's not a widely known language. Instead, we chose to create a language that looks and feels much like Javascript, which I think is the most widely used language today. However, we wanted to limit the scope of it and to add new syntax over time to make frequent tasks easier to express.

Any time you create a new API or library, you create new surface area for a developer to know. A language is no different than this. Some languages are also much easier to learn than others. For example, I found Go a language that I could pick up the basics in very quickly, while Rust is something that I'm still learning over months of effort. I like both languages, but their learning curves are very different.

I think Flux is quite easy to pick up for many programmers, although I'll have to see questions and have countless interactions with people trying to learn it to prove that out and make adaptations over time.

Finally, one goal with including the UI in InfluxDB 2.0 is that as we improve it, most users won't have to learn Flux at all. They'll be able to accomplish what hey want by just clicking around the interface. We're not there yet, but it's what we aspire to. And we want to have control over the language to build it in conjunction with UI tooling to automatically manipulate it.

>We chose not to use Lua because it's not a widely known language. Instead, we chose to create a language that looks and feels much like Javascript

This makes sense, in this case why not take strict subset of Javascript?

> Finally, one goal with including the UI in InfluxDB 2.0 is that as we improve it, most users won't have to learn Flux at all. They'll be able to accomplish what hey want by just clicking around the interface.

This will definitely will be helpful, and auto generation makes sense, however in our use-cases we treat Kapacitor alerts as a code that is reviewed.

Flux is almost a subset of Javascript. There are only two exceptions. Our pipe forward syntax, which I've seen proposed for Javascript, but who knows if that's going to happen. And the other is our named parameters with optional defaults. You can get close to this in JS by passing an object literal combined with destructuring.

However, there are other things we'll probably be adding to the language over time. Also, if you're only allowing a subset of JS, is it actually JS anymore? I'd imagine that some JS programmers could get frustrated when things they think should work (because they're valid JS) don't because they're not in the subset.

But say we went with that. Then we'd need to adopt an existing JS engine (most likely written in C++) and then modify it based on our needs. And then integrate that into our broader Go codebase. All of that seems a bit less than ideal.

Ultimately, I really do feel that if you're someone that knows Javascript, you can learn the elements of the Flux language in less than an hour. The bigger learning curve is the library of functions and the API, which would exist regardless of what language we chose.

I think the proof will come over time based on what kinds of things we enable in the language and the platform. In the near term I expect a large number of totally reasonable people to question the choice of a new language. After all, that's probably the rational response. But as we improve it, add to it, refine it, and improve the developer and user experience, I expect to win more converts. Developers pick up new tools because they enable them to get their jobs done faster. Ease of use, speed of development, and productivity are our guiding lights.

> But say we went with that. Then we'd need to adopt an existing JS engine (most likely written in C++) and then modify it based on our needs.

This is definitely not an easy choice to make and writing a new language interpreter in Go seems a way easier approach initially.

One thing that Go helped me to understand though, is that the language does not matter so much as the tooling around it - debugging, compiling and support around the language are way harder to achieve than writing a language parser.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this design choice, I think this discussion is very relevant for a couple of reasons:

There are other Go projects that are taking the same approach to achieve simplicity and not picking the existing language, like OPA [1]. Others, like Helm are picking Lua [2], so there is clearly a problem the Go and infrastructure community is facing and split in the way people are approaching it.

We've faced the similar dilemma with Teleport, as we are designing our extensions system. My original plan was to use Lua, however after discussions with the team we settled on GRPC with Go [3], trading expressiveness/simplicity and freedom of lua/js languages in favor of industrial features Go runtime and GRPC provides out of the box.

For smaller extension plugins we decided not to create a new language, and ended up with interpreted subset of Go [4].

I wonder if there is a place for some subset of javascript or typescript that is fully interpreted by Go, with native extensions for debugging to be used by the community.

[1] OPA policy agent https://www.openpolicyagent.org/ [2] Helm 3.0 Lua plugins https://github.com/helm/community/blob/master/helm-v3/005-pl... [3] Teleport Plugin Design Document https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sPXXxx03P8VXWy-YD5w190g7... [4] Subset of Golang https://github.com/vulcand/predicate

They're probably looking at Flux as a sunk cost now, but I agree, Lua would have probably fit the bill.

Either way, I'm hoping this is "The Release" where things go consistent. They've pivoted several times, and it's all been good, but we do need a couple of years of consistency before we can make long term investments into Flux.

Lua was certainly an option and it's one I was even considering as an embedded scripting language back in the fall of 2014. I gave a talk in London where I asked for a show of hands about Lua vs. Javascript as the choice and the majority raised for JS.

One of the reasons we didn't go with that is because we didn't want a separate query vs. scripting experience like you have with SQL engines that embed programming languages. We wanted something that felt and looked seamless.

Awesome, great explanation, thank you. I disagree on your point about Lua, but given what you guys have built so far I have no doubt you'll be successful.

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