A meteorite hit the moon during yesterday's total lunar eclipse
newscientist.com
newscientist.com
Probably exists somewhere, but would be neat to see historical changes
I happen to agree with you, and would be happy to see taxes allocated towards further exploration of the solar system. But resources are limited.
It's a nice idea, even if some organizations abuse it (they give out free tax-filling software that has their organization hardcoded).
Just to add some numbers for perspective. In 2018 there was 763M PLN (~$200M USD) to split among 9000 approved organizations. The largest one got 166M with another 100 orgs getting 1M+.
We don't get a refund (perhaps I misused a word in my last comment): when filling my tax, there's a box for amount donated, which is then used when calculating the amount of money I'll have to pay as taxes.
But yeah, the barrier is higher, but I think the choice of organizations is wider in our case, like the organization to which I gave money the last two years wouldn't be on the list for example.
Have little knowledge of astronomy but from a photography perspective this is quite amusing, usually it's the opposite problem for many photos.
> Scott Manley here
His way of saying Mun is the best ever and I'm not sure if it's his dialect or if it comes from playing Kerbal Space Program too much :)
Him saying "Mün" is just one of the best things ever.
Now, unknown asteroid, your watch is done.
Probably not for quite that long. The path of a meteor is only going to be deterministic on a timescale given roughly by the largest Lyapunov exponent associated with its orbit. On longer timescales, even the very tiny irreducible quantum uncertainty in its initial state would be enough to cause it to miss the Moon.
Not sure what the Lyapunov time is for these meteors, but typical time scales for planets are 2M-200M years. For small things like meteors, there are likely other sources of noise (e.g., solar wind pressure) with quantum uncertainty that lead to non-determinism even faster.
My understanding is that chaotic systems are still deterministic, the state at some later time is just very sensitive to the initial conditions (which it may be impossible to know with much precision). "Irreducible quantum uncertainty" is something else that has nothing to do with Lyapunov time.
I also see Lyapunov died in 1918,[1] while the uncertainty principle was introduced in 1927.[2]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Lyapunov [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
I am sure it has zero impact in practice, but theoretically, there’s a random component that isn’t part of the initial conditions.
Our current understanding of radioactive decay is that it is 100% random, and that the law of conservation of momentum also holds at quantum scale. If so, radio-active decay that emits a particle that escapes from an orbit around the meteor (relatively easy, given the lack of atmosphere and low mass of the meteor) has a (minute) random effect on the velocity vector of the remaining larger part.
Because individual decay events are uncorrelated, adding up all the effects of radio-active decay over time will make the already extremely tiny effect a lot smaller (by the square root of the number of decays, if I’m not mistaken, but there may the timing of decays gives earlier decays a larger effect on the eventual course, so it may be slightly less dramatic).
That’s why I doubt it has any practical impact.
Isn't it only locally random? I.e. there could still be some global "initial conditions" that make it deterministic (yet unknowable for us)... As in, given a sequence of numbers, there's no way to tell if it was generated randomly or just pseudorandomly (e.g. by RSA/SHA).
Classical chaotic systems are indeed deterministic in principle, and only effectively unpredictable due to finite measurement precision. But the world isn't classical, it's quantum, and quantum systems are fundamentally indeterministic.
(You can make a philosophical move where you say the wavefunction is deterministic even if the results of our measurements are indeterministic, and the wavefunction is the "real" thing, but that's orthogonal to the point I'm making. All I'm saying is that the meteor's path, on long enough timescales, is random in the same sense as radioactive decay.)
> "Irreducible quantum uncertainty" is something else that has nothing to do with Lyapunov time.
I think I'm going to have to pull rank on you and just say you're wrong on this one :) There's a whole field of quantum chaos that explores the relationship between these things in depth. Here's one of my favorite papers:
https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9402006
> I also see Lyapunov died in 1918,[1] while the uncertainty principle was introduced in 1927.[2]
I'm discussing the implications of chaotic dynamics for quantum systems, and scientists generally do not live to see the implication of all their ideas. Maxwell realized that light is just vibrations in the electromagnetic field, and he died in 1879, yet we still start by writing down Maxwell's equations when learning how light operates under the laws of quantum electrodynamics.
No, it's only going to be predictable on that timescale. The uncertainty involved has nothing to do with quantum uncertainty; it's purely classical uncertainty because we can only make observations with finite accuracy.
>Probably not for quite that long.
No, you are right "Probably not for quite that long" - way longer.
Parent was looking deep in wonder at something and frankly the bits that make up the meteor are as old as they are old. Those atoms have been hanging around the place for quite a while but I'm not too sure that anyone can really decide when they should be considered as "existing" as a meteor.
Though, I supposed given that energy can neither be created nor destroyed it somehow changes form and is absorbed in some fashion.
Crazy for something to spend so long travelling in a straight(ish) line and the BAM! Finished.
Beyond the local galactic cluster though -- quite possibly nothing.
Do you mean the Local Group?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Group
Or the Local Supercluster?
In fact, the entire local group will eventually be a single galaxy I believe, mostly composed of the contents of the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies.
This effect is also valid for objects with actual mass, the faster you go the slower your time moves relative to everyone else and the shorter distances become. You can't hit the speed of light but you can get fairly close.
How does this follow? There is still a traversal of spacetime at a limited speed between the creation and destruction. If the speed of light was infinite then yes I would agree with the proposition that no time or space experienced.
You are offering a description without the explanation.
From your point of view, that is correct.
From the hypothetical point of view of a photon, an object moving at the speed of light, time does not pass and the distance gets squished into zero.
You can observe a partial effect by looking at cosmic rays. We can detect several decay products of cosmic rays on the ground despite these decay products being far too short lived and too slow to have actually reached the ground. However, due to their high speed, their internal clock runs "slower" compared to ours and the distance between the top of the atmosphere where they are created in a collision or decay and the ground is much shorter than they can travel at their speed.
A photon experiences the same effect times infinity; distance and time no longer have a reasonable meaning other than being 0.
I guess one thing would be to accept that distance and experienced time aren't objective.
If you move in a train, the time you spend inside the train moving and the distance you cover from your perspective will differ from the time that is shown on the clock at the station as well as the distance between the stations. By a very tiny amount.
This process is exponential, so if you double the speed you travel at (as a number relative to four) the effect on your time and distance covered will quadruple.
When you travel at C, then this effect becomes infinite. Time passes infinitely slow to the point that the time passed becomes zero. Same for distance.
It also doesn't mean the speed of light is infinite, rather, from the perspective of the photon, ignoring the time part, the universe is exactly 0 in size. In turn that means travelling to some point in the universe, from the perspective of that photon, is instant. From the perspective of the outside observer, the photon is not traveling 0 distance, it's moving at the speed of light to a far away destination. From the photon's perspective, it's speed is not infinite, it's not moving at all, it's created and annihilated at the same point in space and time. From ours it's moving at the speed of light for a long time.
Because these are different frames of reference, it's not as easy to compare speeds experienced in one to the other, especially if one is moving at C relative to the other.
(Simplified) The entire affair is necessary because only things not having mass can move at C (and in turn, must move a C, a massless particle like a photon must always move at C). The entire rest of the universe has mass. From the photons frame of reference, everything else is moving at C. But that isn't allowed because that stuff has mass. So space itself is compressed into a 0 sized point to stop things from moving at C (from the perspective of the photon). Now, the photon however wouldn't be moving because in 0 sized space, you can't be moving at the speed of light. So in turn, time is experienced instantly and the photon is annihilated instantly so it can actually move at C (because it didn't move at all, it was destroyed instantly). In short; the photon doesn't experience time or distance because if it did it would be slower than C, it must always move exactly at C, therefore the universe arranges a situation in which the photon doesn't have to move at all, from it's own perspective.
It's fine -- commonplace, even, especially in the uncurved spacetime of Special Relativity -- to use proper time to parameterize a timelike geodesic. However, those are far from the only curves in a metric-equipped spacetime.
In particular, for a null geodesic -- a freely-falling path taken by a photon -- proper time won't do as a parametrization because proper time is zero everywhere along it. However, there's nothing particularly unusual about a photon's worldline: it's just a curve where at every point along it the tangent vector is a light-like vector.
On the other hand, along such curves we can use an affine parameter. Wald does this in his _General Relativity_ textbook this way: a geodesic is a curve whose tangent vector satisfies T^{a}\nabla_{a}T^{b} = 0 \RightArrow T^{a}\nabla_{a}T^{b} = \alpha T^{b}, where \alpha is an arbirary function on the curve. We can always reparameterize the second version into the first -- any parameter satisfying the first version is an affine parameter. We can equivalently say g_{\mu\nu}\frac{dx^\mu}{ds}\frac{dx^\nu}{ds} = 0 for all s, where g is the metric tensor and s is an affine parameter along the geodesic x(s). There's some greater depth starting at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geodesic#Affine_geodesics
Affine parameterization lets one calculate the behaviour of photons moving through curved spacetime. If we define momentum with respect to the affine parameter derivative like this: k^{\mu} = \dot{x}^{\mu} then we can take the affine parameter value at one point on the geodesic and use that value's derivative at a different point on the geodesic, giving us a momentum difference between the points that is physically the gravitational redshift or blueshift. Additionally, if \alpha = f(x) then k^{\mu}(x) encodes the photon's momentum components, and from them we can extract the relation E = pc.
It doesn't matter that the photon has no proper time because the proper time isn't really physically meaningful. We can still slice up the photon's spacetime into time-indexed 3d spacelike hypervolumes and (for a Eulerian observer at rest in this time-indexing) see that the photon is more red in the slice at time t and more blue in the slice at time t'. We can moreover, thanks to the affine parameterization, calculate how much redder it is at time t and at time t' for arbitrary observers, just like we can calculate the length contraction of a massive object or the time dilation of a clock using their respective proper times.
> the universe arranges a situation in which the photon doesn't have to move at all, from it's own perspective
No, you've chosen to use concepts from Special Relativity in a limit in which you get yourself into trouble. The photon has a non-zero-length worldline, and you can slice it arbitrarily; you're not restricted to the one unique slicing in which you are least able to talk about its evolution.
When you simplify, you need to drop a lot of accuracy and I'm not totally familiar with the field so even more gets lost.
This is above my understanding, not to mention that of someone I'm trying to explain this in very basic and simple terms.
Let's see if we can expand your understanding a little, if you like. I'll also try to make some sense in case someone else sees this in the future.
The tl;dr (cf final paragraph below) is that even though it is hard to make sense of a photon-with-wristwatch (does it ever tick?), General Relativity is a theory in which we can calculate the behaviours of an object travelling at the speed of light interacting with other things travelling at the same speed or slower. Moreover, in General Relativity light can redshift and blueshift due to local gravitational influences and by travelling cosmological distances through the metric expansion of space. We may need to know how much redder it is at some point in spacetime compared to some other point in spacetime, and to some extent that question depends on the photon and its history. We can make sense of the history part as follows:
First think four-dimensionally. Rather thinking of the propagation of than an object with some spatial extent from point A in space to point B in space at a later time, let's start with a pointlike object, literally of dimension zero.
Let's promote this 0-d object in 3-d space to a 1-d object in 4-d spacetime. That promoted object is a worldline. Points A and B are now simply two different points on the worldline.
Now we need a distance function along the worldline. As we're interested in the distance between A and B we want to choose any arbitrary function that gives a monotonic value along the worldline, for example starting with 0 at A and ending at some larger number at B, with every point in between having a value between 0 and the value at B.
If our worldline is everywhere timelike then we can simply extract the proper time at each point on the worldline from the line element of the spacetime's metric.
However, for a photon, the worldline is everywhere lightlike, and the proper time is undefined at every point, so we can't use it. Attempting to reason about this, by for example setting the proper time to the same value (e.g. zero) everywhere on the worldline, leads to incorrect conclusions in your explanation a couple postings back.
Instead, we can choose an arbitrary function. The requirement, again, is that the value at A is less than the value of B and every point inbetween along the worldline. We can without difficulty do better than using a function that returns an undefined or identical value at A, B and points inbetween.
Ideally we can choose a function that gives a number at every point on the worldline, even extending beyond A or B, and which we can relate to the the curvature of the spacetime in which we find our worldline. If the interesting part of our worldline is always on a single null geodesic, then there is a good choice of function: the affine parameter. It satisfies the geodesic equation, and gives the right tangent vector for anywhere along the geodesic.
Decomposing back into our 0-d particle, this means that at any point in anyone's time, one can use the affine paramater on the 0-d particle's trajectory to figure out how its vectors parallel evolve between two points on that trajectory. Indeed, an observer from her or his perspective can predict where the particle will go, and where it has come from.
An object with spatial extent goes from a worldline to a worldtube, but the principle is the same: each point on the worldtube can be distinguished using an appropriate function. For a photon, we still use the affine parameter, because photons travel on null geodesics. They just freely-fall through curved spacetime until they have some direct interaction; that's all being on a null geodesic means.
In a spacetime with timelike worldtubes and lightlike worldtubes we have a network of intersections in spacetime, and we are interested in the behaviours at those intersections. Anyone can apply an arbitrary system of coordinates -- or distances along each intersecting worldtube -- and calculate physical quantities at the intersection points in spacetime. Because these intersections are in spacetime there is no "I got to that point in space first and just missed it"; time really doesn't matter -- the point is that at the same point in spacetime, two worldtubes interact.
General Relativity (in our 4-d universe) almost always lets us build a small region of locally flat spacetime around such an intersection, such that we can then use the Special Relativity background for calculations. The Standard Model, Quantum Electrodynamics, and other relativistic theories describing light all work in this flat-spacetime Special Relativity bubble, even if the wider spacetime is curved.
Alternatively, we know how to foliate spacetime along well-chosen timelike axes, which also slices all worldtubes into objects of spatial extent moving from one spatial slice of spacetime to the next. This is a 3+1 formalism on General Relativity, but it's important that it's still General Relativity with worldtubes on curved spacetime (which has a metric for which we can find lightlike and timelike geodesics). But even in such approaches we don't have the behaviour photons making no sense against the chosen timelike axis. Indeed, we can look at the lapse function which generates a proper time increment even for photons: \delta\tau = \alpha(t,x)\delta t.
In physical cosmology, we can slice up our universe along a time axis called the scale factor, and then we find a lapse function (and shift vector) for everything in the spacetime. A free-streaming photon's worldtube has properties (e.g. wave-vector) that are well defined at each scale factor.
Whether a cosmic microwave background photon can ask itself whether it feels tired (redder) as we take the scale factor closer to our present day, or otherwise check a "scale factor wristwatch" or look out the window to see where the horizon is, is really a problem for metaphysics. We can calculate it in General Relativity, and work out that it is redder today than it was at the surface of last scattering. Moreover, we can calculate counterfactuals: a CMB or quasar photon that freely streams to us along a path that never takes it near a galaxy (other than ours) versus a CMB or quasar photon that takes a trajectory that brings it near a massive galaxy or cluster will have different redness on arrival here. Compare the redness to a clock-on-spaceship: along the first trajectory nowhere near massive objects, we get one reading of the clock on arrival, but along the trajectory which passes near the massive galaxy or cluster we will have a different (earlier) reading. The second clock ticked slower because it went near a massive object. The second photon is redder because it went near a massive object.
The photon experiences the entire universe contracted to 0 length, so of course it travels along its path in 0 time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_(special_relativity...
You can tell how much nonsense it is by reading the conclusions of the posters above: that 'time doesn't pass' and 'length is contracted to zero', which are just funny ways of saying spacetime doesn't exist and that's not a position any physicist will take seriously.
How long does it take to to planet A on the travelers watch. No copping out and saying they've been destroyed by inertia.
I am going to assume it takes one year and and one minute-ish compared to synced clocks in the AB pair.
The fundamental fact that led Einstein to special relativity is that light in a vacuum appears to be traveling at c regardless of the observer’s frame of reference.
If the observer is a photon, however, it must be able to observe a photon traveling at 0 m/s relatice to it (is, the photon itself). This removes the cornerstone of special relativity and the whole thing comes apart. Using it to make predictions at this point is pointless.
There may be a way to describe the perspective of a photon - we haven’t discovered all of physics yet - but none of our current theories do so.
> How long does it take to to planet A on the travelers watch.
You're the one who discovered magic; the answer to this question depends completely on how magic works.
But without magic, it is impossible for an object with mass to accelerate to c. Why do you believe the question has an answer?
The answer is that the distance from A to B would be length-contracted, and would take (from the traveller's point of view) very little time to traverse. In the limit, once the traveller has reached the speed of light, the entire universe in front of them contracts to zero length, and they (from their point of view) can cross the entire universe in no time. Like a photon, they would experience no time between achieving the speed of light, and hitting something.
From the point of view of planet A and B, it still takes a whole year for the traveller to make the journey.
This is like saying that if you put two protons in exactly the same place they would repel each other with infinite Coulombic force.
If not, why not?
If you were willing to assume that one photon did belong to a frame of reference, you would see that that photon was moving at 0 (impossible, but necessary for it to be part of the frame of reference) and all other photons were moving at c (since the velocity of a photon is c in any inertial frame of reference). Thus, all other photons would not be part of the same frame of reference as the reference photon; no two photons can belong to the same frame of reference.
https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/ask-ethan-109-how-do-p...
That's a spectacular end if you ask me.
One should be able to go to moon.com and literally see the state of the moon at that exact moment i. Real time, i. High def
Why are your legs so weak?
I get that this is a joke, but it's funny you're asking someone like me about being out of shape/weak. I'm laughing, just in a different way than you may have expected.
Heck, last year we had a notable meteor come down where I live in Michigan.
Obviously though... having significantly more people watching the moon at the time lends itself to this kind of thing being a lot more likely to be noticed.
...
...
BOOM!
ASTEROID is now CRATER. triumphant music
There is no free will. ^_^
How do they know most people watched via live stream as opposed to just looking out the window or a telescope?
I’m mostly arguing because I find the idea of everyone watching the eclipse on a video screen kind of sad.
It got so cloudy where I am shortly after the Earth's shadow began drifting across the moon that I couldn't even see which direction the moon was in. So I watched a live stream instead.
[1] http://cleardarksky.com [edit: https->http]
And unfortunately it thinks North America is the entire world. :)
Also NASA was (and currently) shutdown during the eclipse.
(In elementary school during NASA's Mercury program, a joke made the rounds that a certain Eastern Bloc country's space program would land on the Sun by "flying at night".)
The shadow of the Earth does not cause the new moon phase. If it did, it'd be a lunar eclipse.
The only eclipse possible during the new-phase of the Moon is a solar eclipse. Lunar eclipses only happen during the full-phase.
"On this occasion, Madiedo doubled the number of telescopes trained on different parts of the moon – from four to eight – in the hope of seeing an impact. “I had a feeling, this time will be the time it will happen,” says Madiedo."[0]
[0]https://www.newscientist.com/article/2191526-a-meteorite-hit...
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515blU3eIzL...
Also, there was a study that showed spoilers actually increase readers' enjoyment (except for mystery books):
https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/spoiler-alert-sp...
These are the first few sentences of the book. The rest of the comment are spoilers though.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515blU3eIzL...
All those same details are there, other than the word "Moon" which is revealed in the first sentence of the book. FWIW, I would edit or remove my original comment to remove spoilers but HN no longer allows me to edit that comment. :(