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Comment by DonaldPShimoda | Hacker News Reader

I've been using my 15" 2017 MBP since it was released (so 1.5 years) with absolutely zero keyboard issues. And honestly, I like this keyboard much more than the previous generation. (I had a 15" Early 2013 MBP until I got my current one.)

I'm not saying that my lack of issues negates the presence of issues for other people by any means, and I think that Apple's "repair" policy of "pay us hundreds of dollars to replace the bottom half of your laptop because we made a poorly-conceived design decision" is... dumb, to say the least.

But I don't relate to people who talk about how awful this keyboard is from a usability perspective. I like practically everything about the new keyboard much better than the previous generation's, but my opinion seems to be the overwhelming minority on this. What exactly is so bad about the new keyboard — leaving aside anything repair-related?

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I have a love/hate relationship with the new keyboard. In general I like how it feels. I agree that the old keyboard feels 'mushy' when you go back to it. It's LOUD. Very annoying to others. It's fragile. I've been without my Mac for 2-3 days a couple times. I'm amazed at how fast Apple fixes them. They have at least two third-party repair depots, near FedEx hubs. One in Texas and one in Tennesse, right near the FedEx locations. My other big gripe with the keyboard is the arrow keys aren't recognizable by touch because of the lack of a T-shape.

I am also using a 2017 model and I have to say, I love the keyboard.

It feels perfect to me as far as typing is considered. (Well, I have one issue with it, which is that I could only get an EU English layout and I used to have a US English 2015 model, I much prefer that layout, but this is hardly a butterfly-related issue!).

Honestly, I expected to hate it, especially after reading so much on the consensus about it. 3/4 of a year in, I've had little to no issues with the keyboard, mechanically. I hope that this will keep being the situation, but I can't say that I'm not afraid that it'll break. I really hope it won't, it's kind of annoying to have that sword of Damocles hanging over one's head - that much is true.

As for usability, I find the key travel distance, the firmness of the press and the clickiness to be perfect for me. It took me a while to get used to it, it felt really strange at first but then suddenly, I didn't even notice and I was typing on it like it I never had any other type of keyboard but this butterfly one. Strangely enough, though, typing on an old 2015 model feels strange, awkward, uncertain and kinda mushy to me now, even tho just using a Magic Keyboard at work still feels natural. Maybe it's just muscle memory -- as the Magic Keyboard feels like a separate device from just typing on a laptop? I don't know.

Going over to any other laptop feels so painfully awkward now, the typing experience just feels terrible in comparison to my MacBook Pro. Kind of reminds me of how the Force Touch Trackpad became one of the best pointing devices I've ever used -- any other laptop without one, even the old MacBook Air, just feels so cheap and terrible to use.

My office replaced our 2015 Macbook's with the "latest and greatest." I hate sitting next to my coworkers who use them now. They're good typists and prior to the switch I didn't even notice their keyboard noise, but the new keyboard design made keystrokes noticeably louder because the cushioning was sacrificed in the name of thinness.

It's distracting in the workplace and I would feel bad if I ever had to use one in a library or any other "quiet" environment. These were considerations I never had to make with the previous keyboard.

Do they have the 2018 model? I have the 2016 and the 2018 seems quieter.

Key travel distance is what I don't like about new keyboards. It is almost like typing on the desk.

But, as I use a mechanical keyboard, and because I had so many troubles with USB-C-dongle-hell, the keyboard is not my main criticism. https://mashable.com/2018/03/14/dongle-hell-2018/

I'd understand if they sacrifice keyboard on a normal device to make it thinner and nicer since the average user wouldn't care and they might even love it more when it is thinner! But, they shouldn't call it PRO then because for most of the PRO users keyboard is the main interface.

After I started using MBPs, I developed wrist pain and later, a ganglion. Could just be me getting older, but after my wrists started hurting, part of what I changed was keeping use of the MBP keyboard to an absolute minimum. (I use an external ergo keyboard primarily now.)

What I wonder about is whether it's the short travel distance (the key moves less than a millimeter), and rather rough stop (given the short travel, it really has to just bottom out; other keyboards can "trigger" before they physically hit bottom, so it's possible to be a little lighter with then). Some people seem to like this feel, as you note, but I particularly hate it. It's like typing on concrete, even compared to other laptops, but especially compared to an external mechanical.

The other concerns about a single mote of dust completely destroying the entire bottom half of the keyboard (since it seems impossible to repair some keys without destroying them, as they don't come off, and the entire bottom assembly needs to then be replaced) — is just bad engineering. I'd personally much rather have a slightly thicker, but repairable, keyboard.

Thankfully, the MBP is my employer's, so I don't have to worry about repair costs. Sadly, it means I can't avoid its keyboard by voting with my wallet, aside from externals, which I already have. But sometimes, you're travelling, and the external isn't with you, and the external also chains you to a desk, which in today's idiocracy of open-office environments means that I can't hide in a quiet corner as some of my coworkers like to do.

A ganglion is likely not due to keyboard use or similar stress, but simply a small tear in the sheath. FWIW my mum (a GP) used to just whack them with a book.

The 2018 ones got a protective membrane that seems to have ameliorated the dust mote issue.

> A ganglion is likely not due to keyboard use or similar stress, but simply a small tear in the sheath.

The small tear in the sheath is, effectively, the ganglion. (A ganglion cyst, for others reading this, is a tear in a tendon through which joint fluid exits, when it should not. The fluid is in a pouch, so it doesn't go anywhere, but the pouch being pushed through the tear by the fluid causes a bulge wherever this is on your body.) To say that's the cause is like saying the cause of a laceration is that the skin is broken. It's true, but it's not particularly enlightening. The question is what causes that tear to arise in the first place, and trauma and repeated strain are theories (though it seems medical science does not actually know the root cause of ganglions). So, it could be coincidence, but I was already having general wrist pain and numbness, and managing my keyboard use better solved both.

> FWIW my mum (a GP) used to just whack them with a book.

My research brought me across this home "remedy" very quickly. Modern medical science does not recommend this. (Mostly due to the risk of causing other injury to the area.)

I did use the new 2017 MBP for few months as my trusty, old type 2016 MBPr developed keyboard/trackpad connector issue after 2 years of constant use. The company I work for had to pay for changing the upper part of MBPr just because of that connector issue which rendered keyboard and trackpad completely broken.

After I got back to the old type keyboard, it feels a lot more mushy, has longer traveling distances, feels bulkier but is quieter.

The 2017 MBP has issues with dust and bread crumbs but otherwise it felt better after getting used to it and getting back to the old felt awkward. A little bit same the same with the Magic Touchbar and getting back to normal function key row.

Also the old MBPr feels heavy and awkward (but more robust built) compared to the new one, which is a lot more easier to carry aroung and pick up from a bag, but the robustness doesn't protect from stupid connector issues which may render the keyboard and trackpad useless...

I feel divided about the connector issue now that I got USB-C to USB-C and USB-C to USB-A cables + the mandatory USB-C hub with ethernet, memory card reader, HDMI and USB A ports. It's cool to be able to plug USB-A cables directly but then I miss the versatility of USB-C and the ease of having bunch of same connectors around the laptop and without minding what port to use with charger. On the other hand I miss the Magsafe 2 charging port which is a lot more robust as a connector compared to USB-C. The connector issue will fade away when the external devices you're using are getting USB-C ports as well. The connector issue is kind of "iMac supports only USB and Firewire instead of SCSI, LocalTalk, ADB etc) but these transition periods are annoying and frustrating.

Btw I also love this new keyboard especially compared to the last one I had on MBA 2014, I like the speed and the feel. Though Magic Keyboard is probably more balanced for the general audience.

I though Apple started replacing those keyboards for free now?

> pay us hundreds of dollars to replace the bottom half of your laptop because we made a poorly-conceived design decision

...makes it sound like it's not technically possible to replace only the keyboard. Maybe Apple is doing it for free within the warranty, but if so, if I'm reading this right, you'll have to be prepared that your laptop is going to come back with a wiped disk drive (new bottom half).

That sounds like an awful design decision. Do I have that right? (I really don't know, as I have stuck to the 2015 models, and I haven't had to open it for any reason.)

Yes, I had a late 2016 MBP which suffered stuck keys and display discoloration. Apple Store repairs wiped the hard drive.

You get your 'hard drive' back. They simply lut your motherboard in a new bottom case, which also contains the keyboard and battery. You get your old screen and bottom cover back. I have had this done three times on two different Macbook Pros so far. I sold my 2015 Macbook Retina and purchased a keyboard on eBay to fix the keyboard, well before the repair program was launched.

It's not possible but that's not what I'm talking about. Here's the replacement program: https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-m...

It took a lot of time for them to accept the problem but now they are servicing every laptop 4 years after inception and it doesn't matter if you have warranty. I'm also pretty sure you can ask them about your data so they'd transfer it (there's even a dedicated port on the motherboard for that) and you should do backup anyway.

Yup! two keys had the issue and I got mine replaced for free! But, I was told that the free replacement is because of the battery issue and they've to replace the top part anyway!

https://www.apple.com/support/13inch-macbookpro-battery-repl...

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