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Comment by jdmoreira | Hacker News Reader

Well. I live in Sweden and I don't make anywhere close to these values. Not even remotely close. I have been programming for 12 years and I like to think I'm not half bad at it.

So is peak programming just in the valley or should I be worried as well?

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California is a fairly unique place, even in the U.S. Despite the costs of living there, it continues to attract talent and investment. The job market there is very fluid, as you can work for a competitor or start your own competitor, due to not allowing non-compete clauses to be enforced.

I don't know the laws in Sweden, but unless they have an environment similar to California the tech industry is not going to be as strong.

That said, at least for me in the U.S., the biggest bump in pay has always been from finding a new job offer.

There's the Valley, and in the Valley there's FAANG (Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Google).

You don't make $400k if you work in an anonymous startup, even in Silicon Valley.

You have a social safety net and actual workers’ rights that make up for at least some of the difference.

I would rather make $500k a year and have "no rights" than have strong labor rights protecting me from being fired from my $50k/year job.

Well, do you make 500k? If not, then why not? It’s possible in the US, but the median US household income is 1/8 that. The vast majority of workers, probably including most software engineers, ate better off at $50k but not having to worry about insurance if they get laid off, and getting 3-6 weeks notice when being let go (among other things).

The people pulling bubbly SV comp numbers (i.e. the topic of the thread) are not part of that majority though.

Probably not very many of them are making $500k, either.

My guess is that a huge majority the software engineers in the Bay Area are making less than half those numbers. If you value pre-IPO options at the proper discount, I would guess a majority make less than $250k. That’s a high total compensation, to be sure, but, given the cost of living, and the value a good engineer can create, it’s not absurd.

Full disclosure: I work at a public company (not FAANG) and my TC is under $250k.

I doubt the difference would be that dramatic (see Hollywood actors and athletes). Also, what's the point of 500K if you're prohibited from working on personal projects, open source and have non-competes, no vacation out leave time and NDAs to deal with? Maybe if you're willing to deal with it for a few years so you can retire early and loaded?

There are no non-competes in California, and most of the best paying tech companies have decent vacation policies (though maybe not as good as the norm in Sweden). Lots of people have hobbies other than coding, so they wouldn't mind not coding on personal projects after work. Is it really that hard to imagine that people might be willing to make fairly minor sacrifices in exchange for several hundred thousand dollars a year?

>There are no non-competes in California,

There are intellectual property assignment agreements though. These basically say "we're a giant tech company and work in a lot of areas, so if you work on a side project in any of those areas, we can assert rights over it cause it competes with us and you probably stole that knowledge from us, or thought about it on work time, or something".

>and most of the best paying tech companies have decent vacation policies

You get 15 days at Google for the first 5 years (even if you come in with experience). I'm not really impressed by this. I will probably never see 20 days of vacation from Google. Cisco had 20 for everyone. Other companies may vary.

>Lots of people have hobbies other than coding

This is not the case for me. I play some video games and I write code. I like programming more because it feels productive, games are fun though.

>Is it really that hard to imagine that people might be willing to make fairly minor sacrifices in exchange for several hundred thousand dollars a year?

It's not hard to imagine that (it's how I ended up where I am), but now that I'm in the situation I don't really like it.

Correction: 0-3 years: 15 days 3-5: 20 days 5+: 25 days

Issue is will you actually get those several hundred thousands for just "fairly minor sacrifices".

That's as close to a lifestyle choice as you can get it. It sure does feel like kind of a ripoff when you're paying 60% of your annual salary in taxes and fees and cost the state somewhere around 5% of that amount, but maybe the perception shifts as we get older and use the public services more.

Poland, 7 years, less than $50k here.

If there's any bubble then I don't think it'll affect the "value proposition" that we ultimately are.

How much do doctors and lawyers typically make in Poland?

Lawyers: ~$33k average, partners get up to $200k.

Doctors: varies wildly, but $20k seems to be the norm with enough hours. The base salary is outrageously low, so many doctors take additional shifts - especially in private clinics where they are compensated much better.

Experienced specialists can count on up to $80k.

$50k in Poland? Not bad!

This is from payscale.com:

Average Mid-Career Software Developer Salary in Stockholm $61,262

$50k in Poland? Not bad!

I was surprised to find that at least in Warsaw this is entirely possible.

There's even this ridiculous Facebook group named "Praca dla Programistów - powyżej 20000zł" (Jobs for Programmers - over PLN 20000 - that's monthly) where offers start at ~$64k.

I mean, where was all this back in 2014 when I was scraping by for $12k?

It'd be interesting to see a large, comprehensive salary survey of programmers in various countries to see how pay varies by nation.

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