Hacker News Reader

Comment by 80mph | Hacker News Reader

I recently went down the rabbit hole of trying to buy Yorkshire Gold tea on Amazon (I am in the US). I encountered so many bad reviews of users complaining about the quality, and the flavor being weakened, or not the authentic YG flavor, that I gave up. It was impossible to tell to which seller each bad review was attributable.

I went on Ebay, found decent UK sellers in less than 5 minutes, and ordered my tea. Downside of course, is that it will take 2-3 weeks to get here, but at least I know what I'm getting.

View on HN

There are certain swaths of items that you literally can't buy anymore because they are completely overrun with counterfeiters. Perfume/cologne and board games are two big ones.

Amazon is, at this point, undoubtedly one of the largest enablers of open counterfeiting in the world. It needs to be met with a massive investigation and crippling fines. That probably won't happen until we have a federal government that is no longer slavish prostituted to business interests, unfortunately.

> until we have a federal government that is no longer slavish prostituted to business interests

If you lend an ear to some contemporary ideas about how technology changes our societies, there might be a chance we will see this happening in our life times. Current government models, democratic and authoritarian alike, seem to grow ever less capable of coping with technology and how it reshapes society. Yuval Noah Harari has a section devoted to it in Homo Deus.

I suppose Angela Merkel's famous "Das Internet ist für uns Neuland." [1] (engl. "The Internet is uncharted territory for us.") shows off just how overwhelmed even G7 economies are with a technology that became common 30 years ago. We generate tons of information which is barely translated to knowledge, especially if you leave out ad tech.

[1] http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/merkel-neuland-g...

> democratic and authoritarian alike

Those aren't opposites, they are entirely different concepts. Any law that mandates behavior is authoritarian, which is not inherently good or bad. Are democracies incapable of producing such laws? Criminalizing murder is authoritarian, for example, but unobjectionably desirable. Freedom of speech is actively anti-authoritarian, as an alternative, as it is a restriction placed on the state.

Democracy and authoritarianism are both forms of government, and that is the sense of the words being used in the sentence ("Current government models, democratic and authoritarian alike, …"). You've chosen to reinterpret one of them as an adjective unconnected to the thing it describes (government models) and then criticized the parent for a category error.

At least Merkel has a sense of humor about it: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/06/europe/angela-merkel-shit...

:-D

> That probably won't happen until we have a federal government that is no longer slavish prostituted to business interests, unfortunately.

If you're referring to the Trump administration, he hates Jeff Bezos and Amazon (and the failing Washington Post, which JB owns)

The only major online store worth buying fragrances from is Aedes de Venustas.

Board games are completely overrun you say? But I buy at least a half dozen big board games per year from Amazon and have never had a problem.

I haven't had a problem either, but Asmodee did make a big stink about this last year: https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/39296/icv2-interview-asm...

What an interview. The whole time, there's this strong subtext that Amazon is the primary vector here, but they never come out and say it -- and dance around the issue of what corrective legislation would actually look like -- because they're evidently afraid of getting on its shit list, despite the massive harm its negligence is enabling.

Would you even know if they are good quality?

They can also be secondary runs, where the actual printer for the game does a second run after hours, with lower-quality components but original assets.

Here a couple examples I came across recently of games which have multiple recent reviews, on the first page of reviews, that either outright state they received a counterfeit or describe quality control issues that almost certainly describe a counterfeit:

Catan https://smile.amazon.com/Catan-Studios-cantan2017/dp/B00U26V...

Splendor https://smile.amazon.com/Asmodee-SPL01-Splendor/dp/B00IZEUFI...

Ticket to Ride https://smile.amazon.com/Days-Wonder-DO7201-Ticket-Ride/dp/0...

Ticket to Ride: Europe https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000809OAO/

7 Wonders https://smile.amazon.com/Asmodee-5511788-7-Wonders/dp/B0043K...

Azul https://smile.amazon.com/Plan-Games-Azul-Board-Game/dp/B077M...

They're not hard to find -- popular games from smaller publishers with high prices but relatively simple (cardboard/plastic) components seem to be what counterfeiters target.

I there anyone who is keeping track of the "probability of counterfeit" for various categories on Amazon?

I've heard that phone chargers almost always are fake, and perfume doesn't surprise me. I'd assume brand-name clothing is suspect. Would not have guessed board games, the market doesn't strike me as big enough to be worth it (though I'm not into board games so I could be wrong).

>at least I know what I'm getting

Lorddddd I am holding back laughter right now. Ebay is the original defintion of online scamming and counterfeiting.

The real way to do this would be for someone to buy a bulk order from the manufacturer, import it, and then sell it piecemeal with a social media profile that demonstrates legitness and quality of product.

Ebay's fees and lack of quality control add negative value to this transaction.

Of course one wonders why in 2019 the manufacturer doesn't sell direct to consumer

> sell it piecemeal with a social media profile

Isn't eBay basically a social media profile? Facebook selling groups are also scam hotbeds, I don't see how that works any better.

I think anyone who is willing to put their real face and name in front of what they are (re)selling can be trusted more than any fake LLC or profile or ebay user account.

If they have videos on instagram and do a live demo and walk through and you can see who their real friends are, then you can probably trust them as much as currently possible.

Because manufacturers don't typically have their own fulfillment infrastructure for retail-sized orders?

What you're proposing with somebody buying a bulk order and divvying it up is basically describing what the existing retailers do. The reputable ones are worrying about their reputations.

Retailers that aren't big enough to do this themselves go through suppliers, who in turn handle breaking a bulk order down into units to sell to smaller retailers. Those suppliers are worried about their reputations too, you just don't see that because you largely don't see them.

(Edited to clarify)

Amazon launders counterfeit goods on a regular basis. Remember fiasco with the solar eclipse?

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/eclipse/amazon-eclipse-glas...

Amazon does not track things 100%, so you may think you're buying from one seller, and you are actually getting something from a different seller. That should be illegal and actionable by consumers as well as sellers, with more than just a refund.

IME product details given in eBay listings refer to that product from that seller, rather than a similar product from anyone of a number of current or past sellers (as Amazon appears to).

Thus ratings are useful, as are reviews.

User rating does refer to the individual, yes, but product rating is across all examples of that product. I've been asked by eBay to rate products I've purchased, and it even says in the guidelines "rate the product, not the seller". Product description should be specific to the one being sold.

I don't think I get that sort of product review on eBay listings; I was meaning the "review"/data given by the seller.

Amazon is also very reactive. They eventually take things down, but they rely on user feedback to notice that something is going wrong. And that can be gamed as well.

>I went on Ebay, found decent UK sellers in less than 5 minutes, and ordered my tea.

I've found myself buying more and more from eBay in the past 12 months. Prices are decent and no whack a mole with sellers. You buy from one seller and can easily tell how long they've been on eBay and a gauge of their reputation.

FWIW, I am involved with an outfit that sells licensed sports apparel on Amazon.

We drop-ship directly from the manufacturer. Companies you are very familiar with.

We have to work through counterfeit claims all week long... reviews, complaints, returns, etc.

Honest question: if you're dropshipping it, how do you know what the customer is receiving?

Well, I suppose Big Brand Apparel company doesn’t have their supply chain dialed in, but I also have previous experience with said manufacturers and their supply chain and factory logistics teams and know how much control and oversight they have.

That said, Amazon occasionally asks us to provide ordering proof of our lot.. an official invoice from Big Brahd Apparel company is good enough for them (it has to match across many points, to be sure). Plus, we inspect and review all returns.

It’s official product. In good shape.

That seems like you have a problem with Yorkshire Gold, not Amazon. The product says "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com". If the company is screwing up their product for the American market, then going to eBay and buying strait from the UK seems like a perfectly reasonable solution, but that's not Amazon's fault.

but the words "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com" don't guarantee anything. Amazon is strongly suspected of mingling inventory from a variety of sources into "its own" inventory.

Even “ships from and sold by amazon.com” products are comingled with potentially conterfeit products, unless a brand pays extra money for them not to be. No way for the end user to know if they’re getting comingled product.

Is there any way to determine if they've paid for no commingling?

Is that even a thing? I’ve never heard that being possible before. I would be willing to pay a premium for guaranteed non-commingled products. But Amazon commingles to make their own internal logistics easier.

If they offered this option it would be an admission on Amazon's part that they know about the issues with co-mingling (which of course they must do by now, but they wouldn't be dumb enough to publicly admit it).

According to [1] if the product has an EAN/UPC/ISBN barcode, it gets commingled, but vendors can put a sticker over it with a different barcode to prevent commingling.

Or the FBA label service [2] can apply the stickers for you, at 0.15/item

[1] https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/fulfilment-by-amazon/... [2] https://sellercentral.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/external/G2004837...

If you absolutely need a single 4116 16kbit DRAM chip right now (well, in several days) eBay is the place.

That’s what’s the most amazing about EBay: just how niche the parts get.

Either internal components, or people parting out a broken system, you can find it all.

Need one screw for your iMac? It’s there.

Need some random resistor size? You can buy 1000. In through-hole or different SMT sizes.

Need a power supply for a particular TV? It’s there.

Need a USB male to male 4’ cable? It’s there.

Need a 5V to 18V 2A power supply? Etc.

This is one of the products which I have ordered frequently and with which I didn't expect any problems. Almost all the reviews are good, the price is good and I've been subscribing and saving for years.

So I'm genuinely curious why you thought Amazon wasn't good for this item.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XEV9YE

Three of the eight reviews on that page call out quality issues....

Huh? There are 1,400 reviews on that page.

There are 1400 reviews but the "initial selection" of ~8 Top Reviews has almost 50% negative commentary. I'm trying to learn more and more to look at the bars on the left; in this case, 92% are 4 and 5 star, and factor in that most people with no issues don't write reviews at all. So my very random modifier would make that something like 95% positive and take a chance on it. This assumes you don't get the dice rolled to a counterfeiter when you happened to load the page.

It would be great if you could filter the reviews not only by the form factor (8 pack, 1 pack, etc.) but also the vendor. If anyone at Amazon is reading this...

TBH I recently bought an end table that had 0 reviews, and it was kind of an adrenaline ride. "I'm supposed to judge this product simply by what I see on the page, and my own investigative capabilities? How quaint!". :)

I guess people act in that information differently. When I saw 3 of the 8 ‘most helpful reviews’ complain about quality, my next step was to look elsewhere. It turns out that a specialty tea shop—and the grocery store around the corner-both sell it, so that’s where I’d go.

For me, the $15 isn’t itself a big risk, but since my spouse is so reluctant to throw out food that I’d be stuck with lousy tea for months.

Congratulations, you got lucky and were directed to a non-counterfeit seller. But your anecdote is obviously not representative of everyone's experience.

OK. But I guess I've been directed to non-counterfeit sellers almost 100 times over the course of several years.

This is my 1st time trying it. I want the authentic Yorkshire Gold, made for UK flavor standards, not one re-formulated for American taste buds (as some of the reviews allege).

Now I'm curious about the difference. Can you say which eBay source you used?

Perhaps the USAmerican reviewers can't make tea?

(They just chuck it in harbor full of water and wonder why it's salty and weak?)

American tea is ice cold and full of sugar... If that's the disrespect that they're going to pay to our glorious national beverage then they may as well throw it in the sea for all I care ;)

You could skip the teabags entirely and buy in bulk. Not this particular blend, but tea in general.

from your linked amazon page important information: "This product is labelled to United States standards and may differ from similar products sold elsewhere in its ingredients, labeling and allergen warnings".

I've never had it, i'm not a tea expert, and this doesn't definitively say its different, but it would certainly make me pause.. Granted, in this case it doesn't seem to be an amazon issue as much an issue of the manufacturer, different recipes for different regions, etc.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com