Comment by bhawks | Hacker News Reader

Comment by bhawks | Hacker News Reader

"Cuba does have a very low infant mortality rate, but pregnant women are treated with very authoritarian tactics to maintain these favorable statistics," said Tassie Katherine Hirschfeld, the chair of the department of anthropology at the University of Oklahoma who spent nine months living in Cuba to study the nation's health system. "They are pressured to undergo abortions that they may not want if prenatal screening detects fetal abnormalities. If pregnant women develop complications, they are placed in ‘Casas de Maternidad’ for monitoring, even if they would prefer to be at home. Individual doctors are pressured by their superiors to reach certain statistical targets. If there is a spike in infant mortality in a certain district, doctors may be fired. There is pressure to falsify statistics."

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/jan...

Can we base our universal healthcare proposals on countries that have done it without the authoritarianism and human rights violations please? There are a few other examples.

Hospital stays for pregnancy complications is incredibly common in the US (and you have to pay for it!) Acting like this is coersion is disingenuous, especially when pregnant women in the US are forced to go home without monitoring when they can't afford an extended hospital stay.

Edit: I should also add that these complications are things that can cause both maternal and fetal death. No one wants to be further than arms-length from medical care when the risk is that high (note the use of "may" in the quote from the parent comment, as if this is a theoretical discussion because they couldn't actually find anyone who was begging to leave).

Why did you choose to gloss over the forced abortions?

The source does not go into the abortion side other than that quote, and it's hard to judge what actually happens. There's a big difference between "your child is going to require 24/7 attention until they likely die before adulthood, we advise an abortion" and "your child is unlikely to survive childbirth but is healthy otherwise, we're going to abort the foetus against your will".

The only other source I can find from a brief Google is from a predominantly pro-life org.

Politifact is a trustworthy source, if you want to argue that they are being disingenuous find a source that proves them wrong.

Because that wasnt what their reply was about?

I dont really get this style of steering a discussion: the idea that every reply needs to include a disclaimer about every differences and some insight into how the poster agrees or disagrees with those things as if checking a box. “Oh darn we cant villify the messenger now what are we going to do... well we can discredit them by highlighting why we cant question their stance on anything”

Because it was clearly bait meant to rile up Evangelicals in the US. Abortions due to fetal abnormalities are just and humane.

Because women aren't forced to have abortions in Cuba. If that were the case, there would be no Cubans with birth defects. No Cubans in wheelchairs. Etc etc etc.

I think the article definitely gave the impression that the abortions were "forced". But to be fair, the article never actually said that. I think the word they used most often was "pressure".

It's been a while since I was last in Cuba, but when I was last there abortion was given on a list of the various options that could be taken in such cases. And just like everywhere, the option that the doctor would recommend would depend on the doctor and his/her motivations. For instance, some might recommend abortion, another might recommend an experimental treatment that he came up with etc. Again, in fairness, you see this in the US as well. Let's say you go in and they find a tumor. Doctors conversant with radio-therapy will likely recommend radiotherapy. A surgeon, nine times out of ten, will recommend surgery. Etc etc etc.

So yeah, not much difference between the two systems in this regard. At least, when I was last there the doctors in the US and Cuba behaved similarly in this regard.

I will say though, that abortion seems like the only option if, say, 9 out of 10 doctors are all advising the same thing. Or if 9 out of 10 doctors are all saying your child will need 24/7 care for the rest of her life, and her life will be short. So how you're presenting the option, even though it is only an option, can make the whole thing feel forced.

I've been to Cuba many times over the last 10 years and have seen how pregnant women are treated up close and personal. The difference between Cuba and the U.S. is that Cuba has a greater sense of urgency when it comes to pregnancy. No one is coerced, but there is a community-driven sense of urgency and importance when it comes to following up with your pregnancy.

>>Can we base our universal healthcare proposals on countries >>that have done it without the authoritarianism and human >>rights violations please?

You're entirely correct there are many other examples of western democracies that can stand as models. However, I believe the reason Cuba was chosen was precisely to elicit a reaction. A story comparing mortality rates in the US to those in Canada, the UK or France would have fallen by the wayside. For one reason or another, the mention of Cuba generates attention and reactions - as attested to by this post itself.

The 'pressure to undergo abortions in case of fetal abnormalities' sounds the only potentially troubling part of that, but I don't exactly get what's 'authoritarian' about insisting women with complications stay and be be monitored in the hospital, or firing people based on poor performance?

Am I missing something here?

Patients have the rights to chose their treatment, and this includes the right to make unwise choices about their treatment.

(I have no idea what actually happens in Cuba).

The only group of women who would feel oppressed would be the CEOs that can afford fully-staffed private hospitals in their own homes and wouldn't be caught dead resting alongside the unwashed masses.

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