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Comment by Sholmesy | Hacker News Reader

As someone who has lost friends and family members, as well as pets, it feels the same.

I see this dichotomy quite a bit in the public discourse, regarding dogs especially, where 1/2 the world treats dogs as family and the other half thinks they are some play toy/object.

We have been living with wolves/dogs for a long time now, we're responsible for how they have evolved, and part of that is how they have evolved to bond with humans. It's not surprising to me that losing a dog feels like losing a child for some people.

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I appreciate you responding and explaining your perspective, even though we may disagree on the issue.

> 1/2 the world treats dogs as family

Do you think that half the world, if given the choice between saving either their dog or a stranger's child in a disaster situation (e.g. a house fire), would choose their dog?

I have family friends who were unable to conceive.

They have had border collies all their lives, who were all astonishingly clever (not just "tricks", but just with intuition etc). These dogs are basically their children.

The "child" part of your hypothetical makes it difficult to know. I think they would save their own dog over an adult, however they are both very compassionate and love kids so I imagine it would be difficult to fight that human impulse to protect a child.

It wouldn't surprise me at all.

My dog is part of my family. She comes before any stranger.

I can't argue with an opinion, but this is just mind-blowing to me. Judging by everyone else's comments, it doesn't appear like yours is an isolated opinion either.

I'm just at a total loss for words. I had no idea so many people value animal life above human life.

What if they value all animals' (that is, including humans') lives equally? Would you rather save someone close to you or a stranger?

I don't think (yeah, please answer if I'm wrong) that's true for anyone.

You may value a dogs life as much as a human, some do. But those same people don't go around with extreme care to avoid stepping on an ant, and would kill insects if they where an annoyance or risk to health. So they do stablish a difference between some animals, where ants are in a different tier than dogs, but humans and dogs are together in the same tier.

Personally I don't think it makes any sense. I do value animal lives greatly, and between a dog and a man I might save the dog in a split-second gut decision (and regret it later).

I reckon many people use feelings to guide (or greatly inform) their morality. Which might or might not be that bad to be honest, I don't really have a solid basis for my morality either.

I don't think you understand the unconditional love that a dog has for its owner, and the commitment good people make when they choose to get one.

For me it is moral and ethical that I put the safety and well being of my dog above people. That doesn't mean that I don't care about others, and it doesn't mean that I would ignore trying to save them once my dog was safe, but it is what is right for me.

This comes closest to how I feel.

You are responsible for your dog, unlike a stranger. The dog trusts you entirely and would do anything for you.

I love my pets profoundly. I have sacrificed immensely for them.

But I would blow my brains out if I let a little girl burn to death so that I could save my dog.

I'm completely in your camp. I don't know if I would blow my brains out. But the guilt of saving my dog over a child, would, at least for a while, completely consume me, and forever haunt me.

In the interest of open discussion; what heuristic do you use to value "life"?

I use a combination of innocence, vulnerability, consciousness and intelligence.

E.g a baby life is worth more than a 40 year old's.

There's no playbook for these values, you have to decide for yourself.

I'm honestly curious, this topic (how people arrive at their morality) fascinates me. We would probably agree a lot (I don't eat meat mostly out of a similar logic).

Why innocence? How does innocence make a life more valuable? It's true that the kid has done nothing wrong, whereas the 40yo has sinned thoroughly, but on the other hand the kid has done nothing good for the world, and the 40yo probably has.

And vulnerability? If a high-speed train/cancer/thug is going to kill a 40yo and a toddler, how does the increased inherent vulnerability of the toddler make any difference?

Innocence and vulnerability = ability to defend themselves. There's something inherently wrong about harming something that is incapable of defending themselves. I imagine it's the same instinct that makes humans root for the underdog.

Possibly because a large portion of humans are unethical, immoral, and stupid.

1/4 the human race wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, 1/4 would actually set the fire, 1/4 would only pour a bucket over your head if it didn't involve walking too far and especially if others were watching.

I don't think it's putting animal life above human life so much as putting family before non-family even if the family is an animal.

Granted that wouldn't be the priority that I would consider ideal, but I don't think it's illogical.

I fear that this is really getting off track for the main and this might be in response to the wrong comment but is it really that surprising? (sadly)

In another comment of yours you mentioned choosing a pet or a random child? What about another, supposedly easier question, which would you prefer to save? A human life or $23? $23 might seem arbitrary but I picked it from my personal experience with a charity I volunteer with called ICM. It helps those with ultra poverty in the Philippines and I've had the great blessing (and curse) to undertake a tragic trip to the slums to meet these people. So I know the best I can offer is mine and ICM's word but that really can save a life.

I want you to know I don't bring this up to try and start a fight or be argumentative but this question plagued me when I returned home and to some extent still does. How can I buy a video game (random example), knowing that money I've just spent could have saved a life?

How do I, how do we, live like this? I'm an Australian and statistically, we're only giving less with each passing year, and what we do give? As on 2016 a measly $764. For comparison our minimum weekly wage is about ~$670. The least able of us (that are able at all) would only have to give a little over one of their weeks to match that.

Personally I'm the sort of crazy where I think of this almost every time I make a purchase and for the longest time it was killing me. The TL;DR of how I was able to answer this for myself involves a lot of reading, looking and thinking is basically summed up as follows. For most normal humans (myself included) we need to spend on ourselves to make us functional enough to care for others. We are sadly not infinite source of giving.

However I think society today has forgotten or changed enough that we no longer see this self healing as a means to enable us to help others but as the point of living, hence the ever decreasing percentages of people giving but I still have hope.

I'm sorry at this point I don't know exactly where I'm going with this at this but it's not that people value animal life above human life, it's that they value their own life and quality of life above others and as sucky as that answer is, I hope you find it help answer your questions in a manner that makes more sense.

You are straying from the original issue which is "is loss of different kinds relatable?" and not "is 1 form of life greater than another".

At what level on the spectrum does the offense creep in when someone tries to relate to the loss of a parent? Is sibling loss relatable? Half-sibling? Cousin? Brother-in-law? Where do we start the grief-gatekeeping?

If I lost 5 children and someone told me they lost a parent so they pat me on the shoulder and say they understand, can I be offended?

I have lost grandparents before, but felt nothing since I didn't know them. If someone told me they'd lost a grandparent close to them, I think it'd be offensive for me to say I could relate.

> I had no idea so many people value animal life above human life.

I think this is the problem. When people say they relate they are not claiming "my dog == your mom", merely that they have felt grief through loss of a relationship/bond. As emotional loss is relative, we don't currently have a way to measure if that loss meets threshold levels that make it acceptable for them to converse with us.

> I'm just at a total loss for words. I had no idea so many people value animal life above human life.

Many people manifestly value inanimate property, as long as it is theirs, over human life outside of close friends and family, so is it really a surprise that that is also true of family pets?

There would be more social opprobrium to save the pet, and the grief would undoubtedly be greater if the pet died instead. If nobody was looking, I think most would save their pet. Unknown unrelated people simply aren't very important. Wars would be impossible if it were otherwise.

Interesting. Do you ever test your hypotheses? Here is some evidence regarding your "most" claim. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog...

Test his hypothesis how, exactly? By putting a child and a dog into a disaster situation?

Examples available in the link in the comment you responded to.

In order to attempt to falsify a hypothesis you don't need to necessarily run a direct experiment on it. In fact, few things are testable like that.

Anyway, I think I have what I need to know as to how he tests his ideas.

So 40% admit that they would save their own dog over a foreign tourist, when asked.

Now, ask yourself how many would save their own dog if they weren't being asked or observed (and implicitly judged)?

I consider the link fairly strong evidence for my claim.

Very interesting knowledge acquisition technique. Thank you for sharing.

It's far from knowledge acquisition; I'll have forgotten this by next week. But your evidence didn't support your position. I told you why I think it supported mine.

I don’t have a position. I was wondering how to weigh your statement.

This situation probably doesn't apply to people on HN, but as a thought experiment: In a pre-industrial society or one where rule of law has broken down I could see a situation where the labor and protection provided by an animal made them a part of the family in a very real way. In those circumstances I could see that the life of an animal might be much more important than the life of an outsider; even if only in a strictly practical sense.

Note that I'm not necessarily trying to argue whether that would be correct in a moral sense.

Yes, absolutely. I know I personally would.

Now, if it was between a stranger dog and a stranger child I'd choose the child.

Change that scenario just so slightly and I would bet that answers would significant change:

Do you think a dog owner would risk their own life (to varied degrees) to rescue a family dog if their house started burning?

This is an excellent pivot of the original question, and I think the obvious answer for most answers is yes.

I'm going to say after reading some of the other responses that there's something seriously fucked up about the idea that you would save your dog. If you even, for a minute, thought that saving a dog with a life expectancy of 10-20 years tops living as a pet for someone's indulgence is remotely comparable to saving a child - who might live to 80 as an independent being - give yourself an uppercut. I'm a dog lover and love my dog, but I would sacrifice her in a heartbeat for a child - any child, regardless of whose it is.

This is exactly it!

Why don't people feel that they should sacrifice themselves and carry their grief and their emotional loss, and save the child?

I agree with some others in this thread, those that would save their pet are selfish beyond my wildest imagination. To save themselves the grief of losing a subjective family member they sacrifice human life for what is to outside observers just an animal.

Be as you want to be, but in this I feel justified in judging those people most harshly indeed.

Also, while this is a wild hypothetical, a lot of uncritical celebrators of their dog's apparently human-like right to life and liberty seem overly willing to make the choice between (a) a hypothetical threat to their dog's continued liberty and (b) an unconscionable threat to the well-being of other people - kids, particularly - around them. Everyone who has a dog of some sort of 'questionable breed' who doesn't do everything in their power to socialize and control said breed is gambling with the lives of the animals, humans (kids and adults) around them. The demented sentimentalizing of All Sacred Canine Life has cost a few humans theirs instead.

Sometimes these sorts of hypotheticals lead to interesting discussion and insights, but other times we get this sort of thing. Sparks are just sparks, but we should be careful because of the possibility of utterly bleak flamewars such as this.

Would be nice if people would be less selfish.

We bread dogs to a form where there pure existens is our contact with them.

We bread them in forms and colors as we see fit.

We bread them in forms which makes it hard for them to breath, which gives them cancer with a high rate.

We should stop buying dogs because we like dogs. We should stop putting them in small appartments and get a service for handling our dogs because its inconvinient.

>>As someone who has lost friends and family members, as well as pets, it feels the same.

No doubt to many it feels the same. Others may feel that their pet is more valuable than the entire world. But let's be realistic, if a driver kills your dog you will not be awarded $x-$xx million. Now if they run over grandma or worse, a child...

Sure, that's a financial/legal thing though, which is fairly detached from human emotion.

>>Sure, that's a financial/legal thing though, which is fairly detached from human emotion.

That's the "It happened. We're sorry, how do we go from here..." thing. At some point it has to be valued by others. I also said that emotion is relative.

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