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Comment by neosavvy | Hacker News Reader

How is no one talking about https://www.jetbrains.com/datagrip/

These guys actually fix their bugs. It works on every database known to humans, and also does nearly everything DBeaver appears to do.

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Perhaps, but DBeaver is free while Datagrid is not, in fact it is rather expensive at $199.

For many people, including me perhaps, something like DBeaver is good enough since it's free.

$90 individual

https://www.jetbrains.com/datagrip/buy/#edition=personal

But you're probably right.

If you are a student it's free.

Also good tools are worth paying for, I have been a subscription user of their tools now for years.

I think it's like $199 for a subscription to the whole suite. If you are a dev (or work for someone who expects you to do dev work for pay) it's worthy spending a few of your coins on good tools.

I stare at these tools all darn day, and they rarely if ever crash. I don't regret moving away from Eclipse almost a decade ago, which used to devour all my system resources and crash and fail constantly.

I agree wholeheartedly, and subscribe to the whole suite of JetBrains tools. Absolutely fantastic value.

Their all product pricing is pretty good value. If you need more than 2 of their tools (while using IntelliJ which covers half of their offerings), then you should switch to all products and quickly get to third year discount.

I use IntelliJ, AppCode and that already means I should be using all products pack which I'm subscribed to.

There are tons of tools in the open source world that are incredible and free. The assumption that you have to spend money on tools does not apply to software at all unless you are working in a proprietary ecosystem.

What is the paid version of grep/ripgrep that works better?

>good tools are worth paying for

Not ALL tools need to be paid for.

Not all WORK needs to be paid for.

That is correct. Trivial example:

If I say I'll do some work for free the we can assume you don't need to pay for it.

Just like I should not complain if you decide not to keep doing it, when the need to pay for bills arises or I happened to abuse from your goodwill.

Do you expect to be paid for your work or also offer it for free and live from donations?

That's 2/3 of a minimal monthly salary in Bulgaria. While developers sure make much more than that (unless they are in public sector), it's still nowhere near the $100k/year starting salary you get in the Valley. And that's still EU, you can go further East...

When saying something is not expensive (few of your coins), consider that it might be just your situation where it's not expensive.

You don't need $100k / year to spend $10 a month but I see the disparity of income around the globe can mean $10 is heavier than others.

It's not the money, it's having to buy it.

> rather expensive at $199

Compared to a six-figure salary? Developers tools are a bargain for what we get out of them.

Developers are hands down one of the cheapest group of customers to deal with.

I've been shelling out for IntelliJ Ultimate for years because I want to support JetBrains. At this point I think I could actually get away with just the open source Community Edition, but it's worth paying them for the effort in my mind.

I love JetBrains, ever since I discovered ReSharper when I was still active in C# some 10 years go. Now I use PyCharm, DataGrip and GoLand on a daily basis and am happy to throw my money at them.

Isn't it becoming cheaper to go with all products pack at that point?

Is it common to buy your own tools in other skilled trades (when you aren't a freelancer)?

I don't mind buying good software, but it feels weird for me to pay in order to make my employer more money. It's not like the productivity boost I get from buying Datagrip is going to get me a raise or a better job.

That said, for software I use in my personal life I can and do pay, and I think we should all be more in the habit of either buying non-trial versions (Sublime, PyCharm) or making small monthly donations (Neovim, iTerm, regex101, QMK, et al).

Mechanics are often required to buy their own tools. Higher end chefs are expected buy their own knives. Machinists are expected to buy many of their own instruments.

It’s not universal but definitely not uncommon.

> Is it common to buy your own tools in other skilled trades (when you aren't a freelancer)?

I can't speak broadly, but when I worked construction, most guys would bring a mix of personal tools and company tools.

If the cost of the tool is within the budget of the tradesman or professional, it's more common to buy it out of personal preference for a type or brand of tool.

If no part of your toolset is within your budget, then you're in the working class, since you cannot ever own your own means of production.

That's not what working class means. If you earn money by working, then you are working class. If you earn money investing capital, then you're a capitalist. The working class can be further divided up, but those are all subcategories. A professional or a manager (petit bourgeois) are still working class. If you're a one-man company, then you're still working class.

You only transition once your investment returns surpass your income. Which is why truly rich people don't give a shit about income tax - they don't have income!

That's a fair statement to make, and one that I have heard before but the definition of what constitutes the working class is arguable thus most people predefine it per scope of conversation, and not in a global sense.

For example, in the UK, commonly doctors and lawyers have not been considered part of the working class, regardless of if their investments outside of their profession.

Because a doctor can work independently, and hire other workers like nurses, and attendants, and own all of their tools of trade outright, they are part of the petit bourgeois.

Now you say that petit bourgeois is part of the working class, but many would disagree as Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels popularized a more fine grained definition of social classes as follows:

1. the working class - factory workers, peasants, and people who earn only by their labour

2. lumpenproletariat (commonly considered to include vagabonds, criminals or the 'unthinking poor')

3. professional middle-classes (engineers or tradesmen who do not typically hire employees)

3. petit-bourgeoisie - Professionals and small scale managers who hire workers but work alongside them

4. haute bourgeoisie - landed aristocracy & other capitalists who live from investment alone

Now if you are not marxists, you may drop some of the classes or simply call them something else. The lumpenproletariat are sometimes called the "underclass", and in advanced capitalist economies the line between professional middle-classes and petit-bourgeois blurs due to capital infusions from the top. For example, startup owners should rightly be professional middle class, but are upgraded due to VC infusion.

There are other ways to define the classes as well that don't depend on monetary wealth----for example the ladder from: working class to bourgeoisies to gentry to elite/aristocrats, so the terms themselves are fairly overloaded.

Analysing class warfare is a bit of my hobby. I blame my sassy liberal arts professors. :)

In many software jobs it's not possible to bring your own tools unless approved. Even if they are free and open source.

If you don't want to make yourself more productive to make yourself worth more and try to stay at what you're being paid for, that's your option.

I don't understand why you don't to become a more productive person then you may get a better job offer or start your own company where you and your customers will be the one to evaluate your worth instead of a single boss of yours.

Yes, for some $200 is still a very non-trivial amount of money to spend on something. If your situation makes this a no-brainer for you, you're in a better spot than many that make 6 figures.

Tell that to mechanics, carpenters, or any other number of professions that are expected to buy their own tools or do so for security outside of an employer. Still a bargain.

I don't think what you're saying changes what I said at all. $200 is still a large amount of money for people, even if other trades force their employees to buy their tools. I don't see how that changes anything.

Do you actually think people outside of the US make six-figure salary?

I'm not from US but I'm interested in knowing what people make around the world for software engineers.

Average annual salaries _before taxes_ in Western Europe starts between 30k EUR (Junior dev without a formal degree) and 40k EUR (Junior dev with a MS/engineering degree). I guess most people who started at 40k EUR finish their career between 60k EUR (as senior dev) and 80k EUR (as manager).

Then remove 25% as social charges + ~1 month of net salary as income tax + other various types of taxes.

For developers in some countries, that's half their monthly income. Please don't think from only a US perspective.

Not everyone makes a six figure salary and not everyone lives in a country where software developers are paid well. I do, but it’s a very ignorant view to justify expenses.

Is there any studies that show what kind of salary people get in various regions of the world for certain skill set levels?

I guess the StackOverflow salary data would be pretty extensive.

Sure. Tools are still difficult to maintain and develop. I love VS code which is free (as in Microsoft). It has replaced JetBrains Pycharm for me.

That said, I have a JetBrains subscription because their suite has a lot of value if you deal with multiple types of databases (or Java/.Net). Their business model is refreshingly straightforward, the coding is solid and I don’t mind giving them money.

It's about $8 a month and even lower on subsequent years.

But the real power of DataGrip comes by using it in one of their IDE that auto completes table and column names inside code and allows you to shift-click it to get to see the definition and show warning when you specify an unknown field.

The software is great but I would never buy it purely because of their business model.

There is absolutely no reason DataGrip needs to be a subscription service. There aren't any ongoing costs for customers to use it.

It should be a one-off purchase with optional support subscription, maybe requiring re-purchase at major version increments, not this bullshit where you need to maintain a subscription for a license on a binary program you already paid for and installed.

Feels as dodgy as Adobe turning Photoshop into a subscription service

Fuck these business models and the sales idiots who try to apply them to every single product

Just so you know, although not very clearly documented, yearly subscriptions include perpetual license for that specific version.

You can see it on the “buy” page.

It’s still less than ideal, but I pay yearly for their “all pack” product and I feel with the amount I use it I’ve gotten my money’s worth every year.

This. The JetBrains licensing model is great. Subscribe to get updates, with a perpetual fallback license for the last version when your subscription lapsed. Their old versions also continue to work across OS upgrades, etc. If you subscribe, the annual fee decreases substantially for the first few years. This is nothing like Adobe's Creative Cloud.

I thought their fallback perpetual license is actually for the version you had when you purchased it, not for the version that was available when your subscription lapsed?

Not sure if they changed this recently - I stopped following them when they switched to subscription with fairly onerous terms (which they rectified after backlash to ‘mediocre’, but never to ‘fair value’).

You're correct in that the current terms are a result of community backlash, or at least that's how I remember it. What would you consider "fair value" for such a tool? And does that include any period of updates and enhancements?

I would personally be okay with a perpetual license plus one year of updates, and keeping the last version at the end of the paid-for update period. Pretty much what they have, but you get to keep the updates you get, not just the initial version you purchased.

The reason this is more fair is that I am paying for the version and one year of updates. Jetbrains has no right to say at the end of the period that since I did not renew, they are taking back the updates they gave me, as if it was by their grace I had been given the updates. I paid for the updates, I get to keep them.

That said, they have every contractual right to enforce whatever they think is fair, and I have every right to recommend against their products and/or prevent the bulk purchase if I am in a decision-making position about it.

My subscription lapsed just before the New Year and I wasn't able to continue to use the software I had already installed.

In order to keep using it, I would be required to downgrade to the version available at the beginning of my subscription. 12 months ago.

If there are show stopping bugs in that version, then too bad. If it's not compatible with your current projects and plugins? Deal with it.

I used to think like this too, but I've since changed my mind and understand why they do this -- and it can even be beneficial for users. There's a few big problems with the old model:

First, you have to define the difference between "major" and "minor" version. Users expect major versions to have some significant improvements or new features. What this means is as a developer, you have incentive not to release minor features regularly, but instead batch them together so you can do a "major" release.

Second, the sales team now dictates the release cycle. More major releases means more money, but do it too frequently and the user base revolts. In many companies sales dictates the releases, but now if development is late it's messing with the company's cash flow and ability to continue to exist.

Third, the software can never be "done", because that means no more major releases. As a result, unless there is a sustainable stream of new users, you get feature and scope creep.

Subscriptions mean predictable revenue, and make the developer's incentive align with users: keeping users happy. This means keeping the product stable, making incremental improvements, and evolving with features that make sense.

Of course the beauty of the market is you should be able to find products sold both ways, and you can choose.

Great reasons, thanks!

I absolutely agree, subscriptions are the way to go for making your software business sustainable and better scalable R&D investments to maintain growth. Gitlab is an example of this in the dev tooling space.

I've bought Mailplane v3 for my Mac a few years back. The app did not get new features, only patches. New features came out with v4, which required another purchase. I didn't buy it because v3 is good enough, buying again is a psychological wall. If it was a subscription I'd be happily paying them and happily using the latest version.

Gitlab is a terrible example, they are charging for a SERVICE of providing hosting and support for their higher tiers.

They are not charging a subscription for you to be allowed to download Gitlab and self-host it.

I don't disagree with your points, but you can still sell software in the buy once model and just keep it live. No need for major versions unless they are needed. So the only point remaining is "we get more money this way", and that's something one could not want to participate in.

If you buy Jetbrains stuff you get a perpetual license included. It's just going to be for the initial version.

Except if they decide they don't have any updates to release for a month you just paid them for a month of nothing.

The issue with a subscription for self-hosted or locally ran software is that you are obligated to pay an ongoing fee, without the provider being obligated to provide any service in return. Their terms do not require them to adhere to any release schedule or anything showing that by paying a subscription you're getting X. It's basically a recurring donation in hopes the software you already paid for gets an update.

Imagine if your OS required a subscription for your computer to be usable, even when the developer of your OS doesn't release any updates that benefit or affect you for months, if you don't keep paying your subscription you get locked out of all of your work for no reason other than some marketing douche thought it'd be a good way to squeeze a more regular revenue stream out of their existing customers?

You always have a perpetual license to the last version that your subscription covered. It isn't anything like Adobe's model.

Actually, it's the first version that your subscription covered.

Not to mention all product pack isn't as costly as $50 like Adobe's.

All jetbrains products have a licence witch grants you the right to use the tools you buy forever(Without updates). If you buy a tool in 2019 you get a licence for 2019.1 and updates for a year. So if you never update you only have to pay once.

Except you only get the version that was released at the beginning of the cycle. In other words, when your subscription is over, you have to downgrade to a version that's a year old. Bugs and all.

With most software, this would not really be a huge deal. Photoshop? Who cares. Excel? Meh.

But with Jetbrains products you've got to consider whether the old version is going to be 100% compatible with your existing project files, plugins, keybindings, settings and configurations.

It's quite a gamble IMHO.

So why don't you pay once and keep that version for as long as you want? It's a perpetual license.

If you want major updates, it's not weird to be asked to pay for it, which means continued subscription.

Except if they decide they don't have any updates to release for a month you just paid them for a month of nothing.

The issue with a subscription for self-hosted or locally ran software is that you are obligated to pay an ongoing fee, without the provider being obligated to provide the service you're paying for. Their terms do not require them to adhere to any release schedule or anything showing that by paying a subscription you're getting X. It's basically a recurring donation in hopes the software you paid for gets an update.

At least you can know how it has been and JetBrains has been releasing several updates yearly for most of their tools.

If they quit updating to abandon (which is unlikely when they're making quite a ton from the subscriptions), you can quit paying.

    It works on every database known to humans

Our team just bought a bunch of licenses of DBeaver and I think this is only correct if you mean 'relational' databases. We have a MongoDB and Eleastic and I don't believe that DataGrip supports either of these, which was a real drag.

We're fully on Jetbrains tools otherwise (R#, dotTrace and dotMemory, TeamCity as build server) so it was a no brainer for me to want to continue that trend but it didn't check all the boxes for us, despite its clear polish.

I tend to hate any IDE built on Eclipse (which I think DBeaver is), but I've been very pleasantly surprised with how well it works.

1. It's got very nice ER modeling where other tools (Like Oracle SQL Developer) make you jump through a dozen screens and a wizard to make a simple diagram.

2. It's got nice export tools to get your data to business partners in a more convenient way. Sure you can copy tables in pretty much every tool but there's just an 'excel' button that can pop open your current query in a new sheet.

3. It does have a weird delay when opening up databases sometimes where it 'reads metadata' about the table and it can sometimes take a long time to return even the most basic query. But once it's cached that data I've not noticed problems after that.

4. It does seem like the document database tooling isn't as baked as the relation tooling. I routinely get hangs when querying my Mongo collections, which is sometimes a drag. But it hasn't been a huge issue.

Overall, I'd highly recommend the paid version of this tool as it's helped me consolidate: Robo3T, Sql Server Mgmt Studio, SQL Developer, and MySQL Workbench into a single tool.

DataGrip is great.

My previous workplace used to be locked into the Microsoft ecosystem and the core legacy product was backed onto a Microsoft SQL Server DB.

Over the years we pushed the business to move away from the MS/Windows ecosystem. When this happened, like many others, I looked for a UNIX compatible DB client that supported SQL Server.

First, I tried SQuirreL[1] and it was horrible. I just had to uninstall it and keep looking. I settled on DBeaver for a while as it has some nice features and it did most of the things I needed it to, but it was not particularly polished.

Eventually the business decided to pay for Jetbrain's All Products package which includes DataGrip and from my experience you could say: Eclipse is to IntelliJ IDEA what DBeaver is to DataGrip.

The other product I was looking closely at was Navicat for SQL Server[2], which looks pretty damn good and those who use it seem to swear by it. However, I am not a DBA and for that reason I can't justify the USD$699 personal licence price tag of Navicat.

DataGrip is not perfect, but it's pretty damn close and I think its price tag is well justified.

1. http://squirrel-sql.sourceforge.net/

2. https://www.navicat.com/en/store/navicat-for-sqlserver/

I paid for and use Navicat and it has always been stable, fast and good. A little pricey as you say, but good.

I've never personally used it, but I'm fairly sure you can use Azure Data Studio[0] for plain MSSQL databases, despite Azure being in the name. I'd be in interested in what people think of it, since I've never seen anyone talk about this in the wild.

[0]https://github.com/Microsoft/azuredatastudio

Have you tried TablePlus? (Not the author but just want to know the experience if you have.)

I haven't! But I was reading about it on this day as well and it looks well received, so I definitely want to give it a shot when I need to regularly use a DB tool again.

This, it's incredible. Amongs many other things, it supports a lot of the navigation/refactoring features of all the other IntelliJ products.

Does it do anything the IntelliJ database plugin doesn't do?

Nice if you’re only connecting to a single instance, nightmare if you have multiple. DbVisualizer is better imho.

I tried to like it and used it for a few months but eventually got back to SequelPro and it just feels breeze to use when every operation is so snappy not to mention an instant launch.

The embedded DataGrip can be a good tool inside one of their IDE though.

DBeaver support much more database products than Datagrip though.

> It works on every database known to humans

Except any non-relational DBs.

Prolly does not work on redis

Enterprise version, like with Influxdb as well.

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