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Comment by iambateman | Hacker News Reader

We need to add some nuance to the way we talk about student debt.

My wife and I had $120,000 in student loans, which we were fortunately able to pay it off in 36 months. Granted, we didn’t do much else.

University degreees are not created equal. Having six figures of debt isn’t a problem if you have a reasonable expectation to have six figures of income.

On the other hand, my cousin went to a private liberal arts college for a $90,000 Communications degree before returning to RadioShack. He may never pay his loans off.

Student loans become a problem when they are used to subsidize high-tuition schools teaching skills which don’t connect to a wage-premium.

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I think it is worthwhile to know that a liberal arts degree when done right teach you how to think, and therefore how to effectively formulate problems and evaluate solutions.

A classic liberal arts education is therefore generate reliable value for the holder in the same way as the sciences, because you would be a perfect fit for complex jobs in running our government and corporations.

Professor Drout makes a great argument for this in one of my favorite books that made me as a physicist and computer science PhD finally appreciate the value of the liberal arts [1].

The problem is that many of our universities have abdicated their responsibility to teach a liberal arts curriculum that teaches people how to think, and are instead teaching people what to think in a very political curriculum. Employers recognize this, and therefore we see the decreasing value of liberal arts degrees in the market.

Learning how to become an effective activist is not worth $90k+ in loans towards your future self.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Scholar-Think-Liberal-Enduring...

I think the problem is many people who choose liberal arts majors do it with the mindset of "this is an easy major, I'll be able to graduate with a high GPA and minimum effort". In STEM even if you pick the easiest classes, it won't be as easy. Those are the "lemons" of liberal arts degree holders. They aren't cut for college level difficulty but still want the signaling of it.

And one problem is that universities seem ok with this, There's a ton of discussions here about how those people should not go to college, or go to community college etc. One could argue that it's not the university's fault, that the students, should make reasonable adult choices.

For those who go into the field to truly learn, they can indeed get a ton of very useful knowledge, but I'd argue they're a minority, and they'll have a harder time to succeed due to all the "lemons".

Yep, the hidden fact of student loans is that the ones struggling to pay it off most often aren't the ones with $100k+ in student loans.

Those usually graduated from a mid to top tier school with a marketable degree, and won't have many issues paying the loans.

The ones struggling usually have lower amounts, and got leo-marketability degrees from for-profit or low-tier schools.

http://fortune.com/2015/12/01/student-loan-delinquent/

https://equitablegrowth.org/an-introduction-to-the-geography...

But this doesn't mean that there isn't a problem. There is one, it is massive, and it is bad for society.

>Student loans become a problem when they are used to subsidize high-tuition schools teaching skills which don’t connect to a wage-premium.

Only 5.4% of Americans make over $100k. I believe 20% of students graduate with over $100k in student loans. The problem is the Pandora’s box and unwillingness to admit we tried an experiment and it failed, it’s great we wanted to guarantee loans to pay for secondary education, but we have to admit the American economy sucks and overwhelmingly can’t support this student debt (good luck finding a politician who will say that, much less be able to take any action to remove guaranteed student loans.

Other interesting facts:

More Americans hold student loan debt than the population of over 200 countries

Over 7 million (>2%) of the U.S. population has defaulted on their student loans

Student loan debt is the second highest form of debt in the U.S., second only to mortgages

Almost 30% student loan borrowers move back in with their parents after graduation

Over 34% of borrowers have delayed starting a family because of their debt

Over 47% of borrowers have delayed buying a car because of their debt

Over 73% of borrowers have delayed saving for retirement because of their debt

Around 63% of borrowers have delayed buying a home because of their debt

Almost 28% borrowers have delayed getting married because of their debt

Those are some nice straight up statistics. To me, a more accurate breakdown would show the degree type, avg cost to obtain said degree, and average income for people who hold the degree 1 year, 5 years and 10 years after graduation. Also how many people with that degree actually end up working in the field that they hold the degree for. Some fields pay, and will always pay, a lot more than others. Some fields actually have marketability with demand, and will pay more. Peoples actual choices play a larger role than most are usually willing to admit. It's easier to just say "I am x in debt and don't make enough to ever pay it off and it's the systems fault," rather than "I chose a field where there isn't high demand, or isn't worth enough in the marketplace to make enough money to pay off my obligations and have a comfortable life."

If degree marketability is the sole point of higher education then let's stop calling them universities and start calling them what we intend them to be, trade schools.

I'd hate to think that the ideal American higher education system is one where only the idle rich get to study what they want or are interested in.

No it's not the sole point. Just a practical one that most consumers exercise when making a consumer decision on what to buy and the cost/benefit analysis of its practicality. It seems a lot of people don't actually do that when making one of the biggest decisions of their lives, and this part has nothing to do with the actual teachings in college. That should be determined before you even apply. A lot of people do in fact choose to go into fields where the pay is not that great. That's perfectly fine if someone is willing to accept that, but if it doesn't pay enough to meet your obligations and have enough left over for you to be comfortable and have the lifestyle you're striving for, then that's also a decision that should be accepted. It was a choice.

If you buy a truck that gets 13mpg, and you get mad at how expensive gas is costing you every time it increases and how fast your vehicle goes through it, should we get mad at the truck manufacturer or the company that gave you the loan for your decision, that could have been fairly accurately determined beforehand with a bit of research and critical thinking (gas prices will rise in the future)?

I pushed my daughters very hard to research what they wanted to do with their lives, and made them think hard about the upcoming automation revolution. A great number of modern day jobs are going to just go away and won't be directly replaceable. People should be aware of that and go into fields that aren't as easily automated if they want to do well in the future. We all know self driving cars/trucks are coming, and fairly soon. Would you encourage someone to go into the trucking industry today if they are young and figuring out what they want to do with the rest of their lives?

> we have to admit the American economy sucks

In what way? I think it's working exactly as intended, to siphon wealth off to the ruling class. Spending is like a gas, it will expand to fit its constraints.

Those stats are not great for borrowers, but they're great for lenders. One take is to blame the lenders -- they lend too much, chaining the borrowers to debt. The other take is to blame the debtors, reframing those stats as, e.g., "Over 34% of borrowers have delayed starting a family because they preferred spending borrowed money."

The truth is of course somewhere in the middle: debt is a wonderful leverage tool when used properly, but lenders will gladly give you more than enough rope to hang yourself. In today's world the only one looking out for you is you.

(for the sake of this comment, I'm talking about non-medical debt)

>I think it's working exactly as intended, to siphon wealth off to the ruling class.

Intended according to who? The founders? The central banks? Creditors?

It’s all an experiment. Capitalism is. Consumer debt is. To think anyone intends the economy to work as it is (government shut down, debt across the board at record highs, defaults at record highs, economic bubbles, mass fraud, etc...) is pretty crazy...but that’s my point, good luck finding a politician to speak that way, much less being able to mobilize the government to correct these issues.

It’s pretty easy to get caught up in the idea it’s working for you. I take it youre not one of the federal government employees living paycheck to paycheck as a political pawn? Is that the way the economy is really intended to work?

Intended by the people with the power to influence it, obviously.

We are in the lowest default rate period since the Great Recession, I don’t know where you’re getting this sky-is-falling take on the economy.

But do not disregard the other advantages you may have to help you pay off that debt in 3 years: being married so you can share costs access to well paying jobs presumably direct or indirect family support (e.g. being able to live with family cheaply so your income can be directed to debt payments)

We have told people, particularly people with low income or disadvantaged backgrounds, that college is the ticket to a high paying job. And then for-profit and other sketchy institutions prey on these people to get them to take out loans for ow value degrees. That probably aren't even completed.

The chapter in "Weapons of Math Destruction" on how for-profit colleges use "big data" to prey on low income people is terrifying. They look for people getting government assistance and other indicators of "struggle" and use facebook retargeting to bombard them with ads on why they need to go to college at a for profit institution.

You kind a have to luck out on a lot of parameters to easily pay off student loan debt. Even Barack Obama couldn't pay off his student loan debt until recently.

the elephant in the room is that we should not provide loans for all educations. the other consideration is the when the government provides the loans it should restrict how much each course credit should cost, how many credits are needed for the degree and which classes those credits can comprise of. This would also put limits onto the cost of required course materials, namely text books and the like.

many don't seem to take issue the government setting rates with hospitals and considering the costs involved it should do so with college level education.

many colleges would trip over themselves to offer degree programs fitting within the limits provided. Yes there will be moans and groans, end of the world declarations, but the free ride on the backs of students who have the federal loan programs to fall back onto needs to stop.

>A communications degree will allow you to build awareness of how to communicate information to diverse audiences effectively, with specific business goals in mind. Strong communication skills are invaluable in order to provide meaning and resonance to the companies’ aims, and to present the company and its services or products in the best (and clearest) possible way to consumers, clients and colleagues.

https://www.topuniversities.com/student-info/careers-advice/...

I don't know, maybe he is doing what a communications degree'd individual should be and he just vastly underpaid? Or the degree is overpriced?

Why are we blaming the 18 year old in this scenario?? Isn't this why parents are helicoptering their kids nowadays so that a simple choice like this doesn't doom them during their formative years?

This is the commodification of education in a nutshell.

We treat degrees that don't award high-paying jobs as a disease worth stomping out. We see this already with people demonizing those who choose to go into the soft sciences or more art-inclined degrees. This isn't to say that there aren't degrees that are a scam, but rather that we need to be careful if we solely value education for how valuable the careers are, rather than valuing education and the societal benefits it grants.

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