Clear explanation of the Apache/Oracle fight | Hacker News Reader

Clear explanation of the Apache/Oracle fight

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Yep that pretty much sums it up. If Apache leaves that would be bad news for Oracle. There is a good deal of Java products that use Apache libs is some shape of form. I would venture to guess that it has to be near 80% of apps at least. I can't think of a single Java project that I have worked on that did not use Apache libs. They are even in the app servers IBM and Oracle's. If their is one group that I can think of that could kill Java with their absence Apache would have to be the one that comes to mind. While it may not kill it, it would be the shot that send a mass of developers out looking for the next big thing.

Pulling out of the JCP doesn't mean that Apache will stop doing Java projects, though.

But I agree with your point - less involvement by Apache in Java is a bad thing.

Obviously it is just speculation but, I think it means that Apache sunsets official Java, takes there own path and diverges. Without the TCK there is no way to guarantee that it works. Which if it happens, will fragment the market onto two separate JVM's. At that point, why not call it something else and move on. I know if it happened I would be hitching to the Apache trial as opposed to the Oracle one, if they diverge I would feel more comfortable on the Apache side. I have already been bit by two Oracle decisions since Acquiring Sun (Killing OpenSSO, being the one I am most PO'ed about). I would not stick around for a 3rd if they push Apache out. I have to imagine there would be quite a few others that feel the same.

Just fork it.

The JCP is a hindrance to Java. It allows suits to make all the decisions, with out the JCP Java might have working generics, or gasp closures. Maybe checked exceptions can be tossed in the trash too.

As 'new Java' starts gaining features and mind share, 'old java' will start to fade off into the sunset, it's market share slowly eroded like Linux did to Solaris. Soon, it will be more important that it works with new java than is certified 'old java'. I mean seriously, does ANYONE care about POSIX compliance these days? No. It's just about whether it works on Linux / FreeBSD / OS X.

They should start introducing breaking changes immediately, and get Google on board. Wouldn't it suck for Oracle if GAE didn't quite work with 'old java'?

You can't because Oracle has the patents covering technologies that are needed to implement Java.

Yes, but you get an automatic patent grant if you use OpenJDK; I presume this grant remains valid after you've applied a large number of patches.

But yes, you can't "start over".

Politically, Apache cannot use OpenJDK. Their only option is to just give up on Java.

Is Dalvik essentially such a fork? Obviously with its own legal dangers as well.

fleitz is proposing a language-level fork; Dalvik is, effectively, a new VM.

I know I'm in the minority, but Sun/Oracle's position is hardly surprising. It's their toys, and hence you play by their rules. Asking BigCo's to pay to use Java on mobile devices is hardly an onerous request. I fail to see how Apache's grandstanding to force/beg Snoracle for free mobile Java benefits me, Joe Blow the lonely programmer.

Apache keeps talking about "contractual obligation", but I haven't seen anything solid about that. If they're so sure, why don't they sue to get the TCK?

Can anybody shed some light for me? Thanks.

Btw, I don't use Java, don't care for it, and hope I never have to deal with it. So my interest is purely academic.

It's their toys, and hence you play by their rules.

For over a decade Sun has been saying that Java is some kind of open, community-driven standard. Apache is simply calling them on their own PR.

You're exactly right. This has zero effect on Joe Programmer working on a website or and enterprise app. It's only about people who want to embed Java in mobile devices (which they will get for free then sell for $$$). Like, hmm, Google.

Can't help but feel the Apache guys are being used by Google as pawns.

Neither you nor Apache particularly cares about mobile, I think; but Apache cares about being open source, which is pretty much incompatible with field-of-use restrictions. "Ordinary Java programmers" may not care about mobile either, but have greatly benefited from Apache's open source projects.

Thus, Apache's current conflict with Oracle is the logical extensions of their ideals, which have greatly benefited the "ordinary Java programmer".

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