Toyota Supra gets new life: sports car debuts at 2019 Detroit auto show | Hacker News Reader

Toyota Supra gets new life: sports car debuts at 2019 Detroit auto show

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29 pointshakemsalah77 comments

It’s not a Supra. It’s not even a Toyota. It’s an ok BMW. Nothing that makes the Supra appealing or especially elevated it to legendary car culture status is true of this new “Supra”. It’s extremely disappointing and a slap in the face to any fan of true Toyota sports cars.

Akio Toyoda claims to be a “car guy” but after the massive disappointment of the FR-S and Scion in general it is clear he’s entirely clueless.

Toyota is a disappointing shell of itself, this car is another example in a long line of soulless non-Toyota letdowns.

The BRZ has been a big hit over in Australia (at least from the sheer number of them I see around) - is it just the FR-S and Scion re-badges that are the issue?

The BR-Z is a fantastic car, don’t get me wrong. I totally love them. It’s just not a Toyota. It’s a Subaru.

The subaru BRZ and toyota scion/ft86/gt86 are apparently the same car: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_86

How can the subaru BRZ be a fantastic car, when the toyota scion is not?

I believe this is a statement about who gets credit, not quality difference between models. They're the same car. But, in the eyes of the comment you're replying to, subaru is responsible for the engineering decisions that make it great.

The Toyota Scion is not a car. The Scion FR-S/Subaru BR-Z is a fine car, it just isn’t a Toyota. As I said, it’s a Subaru.

Scion was a failed marketing ploy that betrays Toyota’s deep misunderstanding of the youth market.

Fortunately for Toyota, Honda lost their firm hold on the youth market by dropping the Integra and suckifying the Civic and Accord at exactly the right moment.

Betrays? More like showcases.

6 to show or exhibit; reveal; disclose: an unfeeling remark that betrays his lack of concern.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/betray

Interesting. Figures it's #6 though.

Subaru fans will say it's not a Subaru as it's RWD. It's really a bastard child of Toyota and Subaru.

I've actually never heard anyone in New Zealand (where they're also very popular, as the Toyota 86) complain about it being a "Subaru".

I think that badge engineering (i.e. putting a Toyota badge on a Subaru or a BMW) isn't looked down upon so much over here, as it's been commonplace for decades.

Unscrew a brake light from "toyota" GT86, what does it say? Subaru.

You’re probably right that it’s a car culture difference. The final Pontiac “GTO” was a huge flop in the US because it was a Holden and everyone knew it.

But for the non-car enthusiast, Toyota still dominates. Its almost a multigenerational "meme" in my family to buy Toyota.

So, while they might be pissing off the niche enthusiast community, they're still winning for people who want an affordable, dependable car, which is most people.

That said it is a bit disappointing.

Sure but what does that have to do with the Supra? Why even bother releasing this? It’s an objectively bad car.

It’s not a halo car because none of it is Toyota. At least when you buy a Chevy Bolt you can tell yourself it’s from the same people who make the Corvette. This is just a rebranded BMW. It’s like Toyota is rubbing in the fact they only make bland toasters.

>It’s an objectively bad car.

How is it an objectively bad car? Have you driven it? All the early impressions are quite positive and you can argue however you want it not being a Supra (it's also much cheaper than the old A80), but you literally cannot call it objectively bad without actually mentioning why.

It looks good inside out, is priced reasonably, seems to have a good chassis tuning and is fairly quick with a great engine, so what's wrong with it?

I'm not speaking of the Supra - only of the claim that Toyota is a shell of its former self. I don't think the Toyota is bad, and I think they're doing quite well at what they're good at, even if it pisses car enthusiasts, such as myself or yourself, off.

Toyota is a shell of its former self because it stopped building interesting cars. They’re fine appliances but it’s nothing like the madness they were managing to pull off in the 90s.

Right, but they were still building appliances in the 90s. And they're still building appliances now, presumably because they realized that selling dependable, affordable cars/trucks/suvs to everyone would put them in the dominant position that they are in now, rather than catering to handful of enthusiasts. Toyota is a wildly succesfuly auto manufacturer.

You could argue that if they took literally any other course than the one that they have they would be worse of than they currently are...even if their actions don't meet your specific desires.

Please don't get me wrong, I wish Toyota were making the cars you want, but they are doing quite well and lots of people are happy to be Toyota customers...maybe just not people like you.

In the 90s they were building appliances and Supras and MR-2s and Celica GT-Fours.

Now they are just building appliances. This is what I’m getting at. The soul they lost was the ability to make a sports/halo car that is even remotely compelling.

From a business perspective that makes total sense. But it doesn’t excite anybody and that’s what makes them a shell of their former glory.

I've been a huge Toyota fan since the late 80s. I've owned multiple 1970s Corollas, 80s and 90s Celicas, Hiluxes, the list goes on. All the way up to mid 2000s.

This Supra is an abomination. They go on about how it's "for the fans", which just rubs it in even worse. If they'd just made a bigger 86 with a turbo V6 I would've put money down the minute they took preorders. Instead I'm just upset that they absolutely destroyed the name of one of the most iconic cars of my generation by outsourcing it to BMW and whitelabeling a boring overpriced midlife crisis car.

Every single Toyota car nut I know is insulted, and you just have to look at ANY car forum to see how badly this entire thing is being received.

For most people, a car is the second biggest possession in their life after a house. For many it's THE biggest possession. It's not unfair for people to be attached to brands they've grown up with, and cars they've worked their asses off and poured literally blood sweat and tears into.

Look how upset people are over a missing headphone jack. Now imagine if the iPhone 11 was a rebadged Android phone made entirely by Samsung with an Apple sticker on the back, not even running iOS.

Toyota really screwed this one.

>Every single Toyota car nut I know is insulted, and you just have to look at ANY car forum to see how badly this entire thing is being received.

I don't know, it's fairly well received on Reddit, and I personally like it even though I'm a big fan of the A80 Supra. Let's be honest, enthusiasts are never happy about anything, they all want something that's 500hp that also weights 2000lbs and comes straight from the factory with the price of a 3 years old used Miata.

Is this the same type of car as the A80 Supra? Of course not, but all signs pointing toward it being a quite promising sports car, and all the early reviews are quite positives as well.

The kind of people who make the loudest noise on the forums aren't the type who would be putting money down buying a new $80k GT-R caliber Supra anyway.

For $50k starting price, you get a good looking 2 seater that's relatively light, agile, 4.1s 0-60 and very nicely equipped with the latest BMW cabin tech and Toyota styling, I think this thing will sell like hotcakes.

And BMW Z4 is a car for those people. Looking at the sale numbers says it all, people you cite as enthusiastic about it dont buy cars.

What sales number? This car isn't even on sale yet.

The Z4 is a convertible that costs $15k more. The people who complain the loudest about this car are the ones who don't buy new sports cars.

Miata M4?

Fundamentally Toyota (and most other car manufacturers) is a company that sells cars to people to use for commuting and other day to day business.

Sports cars are just a marketing tool.

Toyota makes their money selling the Hilux and the Corolla, not the 86 or the Supra. And the Hilux and Corolla are as good as ever (well, nothing will ever beat the 90's Hiluxes)

From what I understand, the 3rd/4th gen Supras were such a draw because of the engine. It was an I6 which meant that it could withstand higher RPMs more easily than a V6 (all cylinders moving along the same axis) and it was a cast iron block (no aluminum). This made it exceedingly more capable of withstanding high loads than other engines. Apparently, just by installing a larger turbo and a better camshaft, along with tuning some of the valve timings, it was possible to get 700+hp out of the engine. 1000+ was common and I've heard of people going over 1500HP.

I don't know much about the new engine but I'm assuming this won't be possible here?

The original Supra was a Celica trim level. The car that pushed the Supra to legendary status in car cicrles was the 4th generation and to a lesser extent the 3rd.

Sorry, that's the one I meant, edited for clarity

Doug Demuro on his youtube channel goes into some detail about why the old Supra was so popular. Basically it was way overbuilt allowing for massivly increasing it's abilities (and the first Fast/Furious movie).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwKAS9vQq90&t=1186s

Not a fan of all the fake vents and curves being added to cars nowadays. Seems like car designs used to be a lot cleaner, now they have so much going on it looks too busy.

This is still why the VW golf is my favorite car. Understated is underappreciated.

This is how I know I need to get out more: one of the available colors is Absolute Zero White, and my brain went “but #000000 is black!” and not “snow is white”.

Just think in the subtractive color model, rather than computer-screen-additive...

Very puzzling styling--like a more swoopy 370Z with some Z4/M-coupe haunches and ugly modern BMW interior. Which is a strange way to go, after the iconic smooth lines, workmanlike cockpit, and basket handle spoiler of the Mk4.

I think Toyota and BMW are nuts to think this model will draw any 718 Cayman buyers. Who is seriously going to pass on the Porsche PDK (or manual transmission) and mid-rear engine for a front engine and torque converter?

It's nice that Toyota is trying, yet baffling that they came up with some sort of "German fixed-roof autobox Miata" to do it.

It's a Z4. Chassis and engine.

And interior. And factory.

Toyota doesn’t “get it” anymore. I see a lot of paralleles to the late 70s downfall of GM. The beancounters took over and nothing of the soul of the company remains.

Objectively this car is fine but it’s not a Toyota in any way.

>I think Toyota and BMW are nuts to think this model will draw any 718 Cayman buyers. Who is seriously going to pass on the Porsche PDK (or manual transmission) and mid-rear engine for a front engine and torque converter?

So I've driven many versions of the ZF8, honestly even though it's not Porsche PDK, it's still very capable and I prefer the newer ones to the DCT in my F80 M3. Hell, even the new M5 uses the ZF8 transmission now and dumped the DCT.

sheepishly raises hand.

I mean, it's quicker than a base model 718 while being much better equipped and is about half the price of a equally equipped 718S. If money is no objection whatsoever then sure, 718 all the way, but unfortunately that's not the case for most people, even sports car buyers.

Not EV, not Hybrid, not even really made by Toyota (Z4 rebadge). I struggle to understand why this vehicle is relevant other than perhaps as a symbol of the ICE sportscar nadir.

>Not EV, not Hybrid,

Jesus the EV crusaders are annoying. Thank god this car isn't an EV or hybrid, and I say that as a Model 3 owner.

>I struggle to understand why this vehicle is relevant other than perhaps as a symbol of the ICE sportscar nadir.

Obviously you struggle to understand a market that you have neither appreciation nor understanding of. Hint hint: people buy sports cars to have fun in their own ways, and currently there are no hybrid/EVs that's light and agile enough to be called a true sports car.

I'm a car nut and love cars. I like the idea of a new Supra, but I don't think it'll last long. The days of the sports coupe are gone. (i.e. the Accord Coupe was a great car, but nobody wanted one.) 'Muscle cars' are an exception, but these differ from sporty coupes.

I predict a short run.

Edit: Others are correctly pointing out that the BRZ/86 twins sell well, but these are small cars, not bigger semi-luxury couples ala the BMW 8.

Interior, infotainment and powertrain all look very BMW. Reliability will be interesting to see in a few years.

Well, it is co-designed with BMW after all. The new Supra shares a lot with the BMW Z4

See also Mazda Miata MX-5 and Fiat 124 Spider - and separately - Toyota 86 and Subaru BRZ.

Ford and Volkswagen are working on a vehicle co-development deal (scope unannounced, but rumored to be very big).

GM and Honda are working together on self-driving tech and hydrogen fuel cells.

The future of the auto industry is very very expensive, but it should prove to be interesting as well.

Which is what's sad. The Supra is a cheaper, uglier, 50HP slower Z4 with no convertible top. The only thing it's got going for it, according to side-by-side reviews, is the Supra "feels smoother" and it's cheaper. For $50k, if everything else about it is boring, I at least want it to knock me into my seat.

If I got a Toyota sports car today, it would be the 86 with an aftermarket turbo or supercharger. With 100hp boost, it would reach about a 1:8.8 power to weight ratio, compared to the Supra's about 1:10. Cost: about $30K.

Or a MKIV Supra...

The MKIV is incredibly sexy, but it's got worse power:weight than a boosted 86, and it's over 20 years old, so maintenance will become a hassle.

Yeah but it’s a Supra. :)

It’s not co-designed. It’s a BMW. Designed by BMW, built by BMW. Toyota provides some badges and money. Nothing about this car is a “Toyota”.

One wonders how it is going to work out with the Toyota service department and parts counter. "Uhhh, got to order that high-pressure fuel pump from Germany... no, the Prius and Tacoma don't use anything interchangeable."

Most likely the common parts will cost less at the BMW counter. Or, original parts on the aftermarket, because Toyota isn't bullying these suppliers and forbidding them from selling on the aftermarket!

Toyota did their own exterior styling and did all their own steering, chassis and suspension tuning.

It's at heart a BMW, but saying there is nothing Toyota is quite an exaggeration.

It’s a modified BMW. It’s not an actual Toyota like previous Supras.

It has no soul of a Toyota. It’s just a base trim level of a BMW with different financing options and a different support network.

By the way, if I’m buying a BMW why would I want Toyota of all companies to modify the steering and suspension? I’d rather have a Toyota with BMW steering and suspension, not this abomination.

“I like my 3 series but I wish it handled more like a Camry” - nobody, ever.

Wait.. in one sentence you claim Toyota's "soul" is something good to desire for, and in another sentence you claim it just means the car will handle like Camry.

I drive a F80 M3 right now, and I very much would love to see how this car drives since I love, love the GT86 suspension/steering tuning. In fact the GT86 has better steering than my M3, so if this Supra is like that it would be very attractive to me.

If anything, a car with BMW drivetrain and Toyota motorsport's chassis/suspension/steering is exactly what a lot of people would want these days, since BMW has a big lead in engine tech (especially turbo 6) and Toyota did such a spectacular job with GT-86's chassis/suspension/steering. Hell, if BMW supplied their turbo 4 cylinder to the GT86 imagine the success it would have had.

Did Toyota actually do the 86's chassis and suspension or was that Subaru?

The 86's chassis and suspension tuning? Absolutely Toyota.

That is so weird to me. Toyota makes the most reliable cars. Why would they give anyone else the opportunity to piss in their pool?

From the side, it looks like it has been in an accident already. I think the side indents are too prominent.

Eh looks like a Viper.

Nothing beats MKIV in looks.

I think the MK3 has aged better than the MK4 tbh... but agreed that this thing just looks like a MK4 had a baby with a Mustang or something.

speedhunters' take: http://www.speedhunters.com/2019/01/wheres-my-3jz-bro-a90-su...

It’s interesting how many people fetishize the supra as a huge tuner car... and most car pundits I’ve seen have been saying this will be too. The thing costs just about as much as a BMW 340i - even in the “wink wink probably swap this” 4 cylinder configuration coming later it just seems too expensive for “regular” people to mess with like the mk4s, which only got popular after fast & furious came out.

The Mk3/Mk4 Supra was the beneficiary of Japan's golden age--and solid overengineering--in the 1990s. Stout iron block, strong transmission, not too many electrical doodads. Sort of like 1980s German cars, before the Germans got carried away with fussy sensors and featureitis. It seems a little unlikely that either nation is poised to have a good run like that anytime soon.

I mean for these prices you are within reach of a Tesla. A Tesla with better 0-60 times.

Likely that a lot of folks (y.t. included) won't want to own a Tesla until it's really clear that the company is set up to service broken stuff over the long run. It'll be interesting to see how the Taycan does, and go from there.

Ok so why buy a BMW that has to be fixed by Toyota mechanics? What worse scenario can you even imagine for car maintenance?

A Tesla is a fast luxury car, not an enthusiast's sport car. They're never meant to see a track, and 0-60 is of almost no importance there. This car is competing with the Cayman and C7 Corvette, or a Miata with a lot of money for parts and tires.

No such a grand idea in my opinion: Toyota style with BMW reliability.

Lets hope its not going to be E60 M5 reliable.

It looks like a Miata with one of those awful s2000 fastback hard tops!

First Subaru, now BMW, cant wait for new Land Cruiser being rebadged TATA Discovery.

2020 Toyota Supra vs. 2019 BMW Z4: One big difference is horsepower https://www.autoblog.com/2019/01/14/2020-toyota-supra-vs-201...

> the BMW version of this BMW engine makes 382 horsepower, while the Toyota-tuned version produces only 335 horses.

> Toyota is slapping a $50,920 starting price on the Supra, while the Z4 with the equivalent I6 starts at $64,695.

> BMW always lets folks option its cars up to the gills, and Toyota is offering a Premium grade and Launch Edition at the start itself. Even with the special Launch Edition, the Supra is still less, though, at $56,180. The four-cylinder Z4 is the Supra's price equivalent right now, each starting at just over $50,000.

beautiful car.

I wouldn't quite say that. Sort of like an Alfa Romeo if it were Japanese.

Japanese styling is always best when they steal it from the British. See the 240z (Jaguar E-Type) or any 1970s Honda UJM (Triumph).

All modern Toyotas are revolting. The new Prius is offensive to look at.

Ah, the 240z. Great looking car!

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