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Comment by protomyth | Hacker News Reader

I can tell you why the whole Service Charge Inclusive irritates customers. Its false advertising. You are increasing the cost of the meal but not reflecting it on the menu. People find it dishonest like every other time in our lives where we are told a price, but then we get hit with a fee. Ask bank customers about it.

Just be honest, the meal needs to cost more because the cost of production is more.

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Mensho Tokyo is a ramen place I frequent regularly in SF and that has abolished tips. Every time I go, it's a pleasant surprise and I leave feeling happy about it. I can't recall right now if the prices on the menu are inclusive of the automatic service charge or not… but that's kind of the point. All I'm left with is a positive impression that this place is better than the norm. What I remember is at the end of the meal, I am told by staff that a tip isn't necessary, that it's already included in the service. Compare this to the way many people handle this: they include a mandatory service charge, or worse, a "healthy SF tax," all the while still happily soliciting further tips. It feels like a money-grab.

At the end of the day, it's all about execution, and unless you're able to fully commit to abolishing tips, don't bother trying.

The "healthy SF" 4% mandate is especially egregious. It's simply a common way for restaurants to falsely advertise prices. When I see it, I'm left with a strongly negative impression, and I tip significantly less as a result.

There is a list of restaurant without tips. Zazie is one of them.

I've personally stopped giving tips in every restaurants not including them.

This is ridiculous and incredibly unfair to the service workers. You're not sticking it to restaurant owners by refusing to tip, you're just being an asshole.

How? It is optional and plenty of other people are not tipping. I think you're being an idiot for throwing your money away if you tip because you feel forced to. If you tip because you appreciated the service then it's different.

> It is optional and plenty of other people are not tipping

No it's not and no there aren't! I can't believe you think this is normal. Not tipping unless you particularly appreciate the service is like... dumping your fast food trash out the car window when you're done with it. You can probably do it every week for years and get away with it but it's awful behavior.

Yes tipping is optional. If we can't agree on a fact we won't go really far.

I’m all in favor of abolishing tipping culture from the US but that’s not something you can expect a single restaurant to accomplish on their own. Given the reality of US culture I think this is a good compromise for now. It’s much more honest then pretending that the restaurant isn’t expecting a 20% tip on every order.

If you expect a mandatory fee and its not on the item's price, then its dishonest. Sales tax in the US is bad enough, but at least we all know about it and its the government. If they want to break out the "labor" cost on the menu like auto folks do, then fine, but this fee crap is just plain irritating.

Well, you can rage against it. You'll be joined by all the people who never want tipping to end because they're intoxicated by the feeling of power they hold over waitstaff as they decide how much to tip.

Oh give me a break. If you need to charge the money, then you need to be like every other business and charge the money. In fact, they are charging the money, they are just throwing it on at the end as a fee. Businesses who do that are dishonest.

It's dishonest, but in my eyes it's less dishonest than how tipping works as a socially-mandatory fee. So I welcome it as a path to improvement.

Maybe some day we'll get it and sales tax to be part of the list price. But that will probably take legal force.

I will note that a service charge on the menu is actually pretty common in a lot of places in Europe. Not saying it’s good or bad but it’s not something a few places in the US have dreamed up.

Most engineers in the bay area don't tip anymore.

I'm sure this has done wonders for the degree of warm feelings the SF service-sector has had in the past for techies...I'd just tell everyone I worked as a landscaper.

Why would you care? Waiters don't expect tipping as much as in the rest of the country.

Hopefully, that'd be because the majority of restaurants are including a service charge with every meal, and not because the waiters have become inured to their techie clientele being chiselling niggardly prats. In circles I move in, being a bad tipper is right up there with shoplifting, dog-kicking or vandalism as a moral failing, and how one treats service employees a touchstone of one's character.

You should change friends. People shouldn't decide what you do with your money.

I'd like to get rid of tipping too, and I'm inclined to agree with you that service charge included (suitably noticed) is not a terrible intermediate to get there.

However, that said, restaurateurs need to realize that it changes the business model. Their waiters are no longer de facto independent contractors that have aligned incentives. Instead they are regular wage earning employees that need more management attention. It's fairly easy to see the impact if you go to a restaurant with a service included threshold (e.g. party of six) and try it both ways.

I know a large group of people who have stopped tipping in SF. I'm the same. 0$ tip if it's not included.

On principle I agree with you. I'd be perfectly happy walking into a restaurant that raised prices by 20% across the board and put a note on the menu saying "tipping not expected - our prices account for service."

The problem is that every actor - from the diner to the server - is so used to the tipping system. Diners won't factor in the fact that they don't have to tip, because they will probably still want to tip (as mentioned in the article, a lot of people like the feeling of control tipping gives them). Servers won't like it because unlike a service charge or tip, that 20% baked in isn't only for them and they will feel like the owner is shorting them compared to tips (even if they aren't).

Path dependence is hard. I don't know how to fix this situation.

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