Comment by dharmapure | Hacker News Reader

Comment by dharmapure | Hacker News Reader

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Procrastination is fun and complicated. "Just Do It" doesn't seem to help much for me. After reading more I've found a number of reasons for procrastination that may be helpful depending on the cause:

Is the task too vague? If so, making it more concrete helps. "Do taxes" is impossibly vague and scary and the brain rebels. "Make a list of all expenses this year" is better but still large. This is the most common actually helpful advice I've found. But also

Do you not actually care about the task? Having a grand overarching goal for your career/life can help you make sure the task is worth doing. Or for something like taxes, you can say "this helps me achieve my goal because if I don't pay my taxes I'll probably go to jail."

Do you not believe your project will succeed? This is a subtle one I only recently discovered. If I'm working on an app or a business idea and I get to the point where I don't believe it has a chance, I strongly lose motivation. Some say this is a survival mechanism - if a hunter gatherer had a plan to kill a wooley mammoth with a spear up close and that'd probably result in death, a strong sense of "procrastination" could be a lifesaver.

Is it resistance to something that threatens your identity? This is a fun one - maybe you've internalized that you don't finish projects (I've had some of this I think). Finishing a project would threaten your "identity" of a non finisher, and some part of the brain _hates_ things that threaten it's identity. I think this one you just have to figure out a way to push through, and give that part of the brain fodder to convince itself that it's identity is not of "doesn't finish projects". The same can be true of earning money, and other kinds of success.

The mind is great at rationalizing excuses. It is about executing. It is about having the discipline to do the things you don't want to do, but know they have to get done.

As soon as you start thinking about motivation, you have lost. Motivation is fleeting. Even the most important task that is also fun will likely become a grind before you are done. How do you get it finished? Have the discipline to grind it out.

I'm not implying any of this easy. When the alarm goes off every morning to go to the gym, it sucks. But I do it anyway. The first step is accepting it is not easy and it will suck at times.

> When the alarm goes off every morning to go to the gym, it sucks. But I do it anyway. The first step is accepting it is not easy and it will suck at times.

This is a major problem for me right now. The depression doesn't help, but it's clear that it needn't stop me from doing well – as evident from all the great stuff artists with depression have made.

How do you get to that point, mentally? Were you raised with discipline in mind – as in, were your parents/guardians promoting discipline within you? Did you get to it yourself?

See I might be wrong here, but I think the problem starts when you see yourself as a depressed person. Do you see yourself as someone who can wake up early and go to the gym? Do you see yourself as someone who could be disciplined?

Don't get me wrong, you might be a depressed person. I see depression as a water swirl that keeps dragging you down and doesn't let you look at yourself as what you could be. It's the typical comparison of "I am trying to quit smoking" and "I'm not a smoker".

You get to that point, mentally, by acting. Mentality affect behaviour, and behaviour affects mentality. If you see you can wake up, it's more easy that you'll see yourself as someone who can wake up and go to the gym.

To be fair, it's difficult to not see yourself as having <something> when <something> is everpresent in many aspects of your daily life.

I want to socialize, but it's difficult. I want to work out, but it's really difficult. I want to finish the projects I start, but it's almost impossible after a while. Not because I want it to be – so that, perhaps, I could escape the strain of putting in the effort – but because it just is. That's the sad part.

I get what you're saying – "Define yourself as someone who does the stuff you want to get done" – and I'm behind it. You're saying I should behave as if I'm already <someone> – the person who exercises, the person who socializes well, the person who finishes what they'd started?

I've tried that before. It worked for a while, but then it always gets to the point where I feel the kind of an existential "meh" – the apathy towards achieving the thing because the thing no longer seems meaningful, even though I realize how much I value it in my head. That's the sadder part.

Ernest Becker wrote about it in The Denial of Death. We all strive towards completing our projects of immortality – the things that memorialize us, the existence of which help us overcome physical death by becoming culturally immortal. People with depression lose faith in the fact that their projects are achievable.

But suppose it's not true: suppose I can actually manage it. What do I do?

I'll answer both your questions here:

> Were you raised with discipline in mind – as in, were your parents/guardians promoting discipline within you? Did you get to it yourself?

Good questions. I think I was raised with less forced discipline than most kids. I say forced because there was necessary discipline. My family didn't have much so when I was old enough to want money to buy things that meant finding a job. With that said, external discipline never lasts. IMO, that's more like motivation. There is a reason discipline is almost always called 'self' discipline. It comes from within.

> How do you get to that point, mentally? What do I do?

Understand that there is no end point. If I reached my goal today, I would just make another goal farther out. The goal becomes less important than the process.

Also understand it's never easy. You may think you have no discipline right now, but in reality I might be a half step closer than you are. I fail at my self discipline all the time. Good, it gives me something to work on.

What you need to do is simply start. IMO, exercise is so important not just physically but mentally. Powerlifting taught me so much about the grind and pushing forward when your body wants to stop. It took months one time for me to add 5# to my dead lift.

So workout - right now. Get up do some burpees, push ups, sit ups, and squats. In 20 minutes, workout one is done. Set your alarm for 20 minutes earlier and do the same tomorrow and the day after that. Ignore whether or not those 20 minutes are meaningful (do you ponder the meaningfulness of watching a single TV show??), just do it. Embrace the strain of putting in this tiny bit of effort to get up and workout.

> It took months one time for me to add 5# to my dead lift.

Holy cow! I would've quit after a few days of no progress.

Thank you for this reply. The workout felt good. I did a little bit of push-ups, squats, and plank, and it was a major boost already. Last time I exercised was a week ago.

How did you start? Was it the school PE? your parents' example?

By that point I had been dead lifting for years. Every 5# I added over 500# was a struggle. Some days progress was measured by lifting the bar 1” off the ground.

How did I start? Many years ago in my early 20s I thought I had it all. Great fiancé, good job, and a good life. I could see my whole future and it was good. Through a bunch of random circumstances I started playing DAoC (old school mmo). I had always played games for fun, so no big deal.

Fast forward 2 years and every waking moment I had that I wasn’t working I was playing DAoC. I was still doing my job, but I was certainly not excelling. Eventually my fiancé left me. Even though I quit DAoC Soon after, it was too late to get her back. It reminds me of a scene in Mushashi where he asks the priest why he tied him to a tree. The response was he tied tied those ropes himself - exactly as I had done.

Suddenly I had all this time, was getting pudgy, was depressed, and couldn’t sleep. My apartment had a gym so I started working out doing things like you just did today. Suddenly I was tired enough to sleep again, my confidence came back, and I had a new focus.

Later I found powerlifting and it was like finding zen. Take the craziness of the day, complexity of work, and relationships and throw all that out. While of course there is proper technique, the dead lift is simple. See that weight? Pick it up. Repeat :)

From that one self discipline decision to stop DAoC and then start working out so many other things presented themselves. I went back and finished grad school, excelled at better and better jobs, and today 15+ years later I’m married to a great woman.

I certainly have not perfectly followed self discipline this whole time, but even just the little I had made great changes for me. If I can be the catalyst for even just a single person to do the same, I’m happy :)

Glad to hear things worked out for you because you'd made a better choice. Shame that it came to that, of course, but once you're in a rut, the only good thing I reckon I can do is praise your efforts towards getting out. :)

What was your mindset like from the day you quit DAoC to now? Did you feel like it all doesn't matter anyway, so why bother? Was yours a resolute mind?

I agree that discipline > motivation. And thus, habit formation becomes important. What I'd like to add here is what I call "learn to enjoy". I try to "learn to enjoy" waking up in the morning to go to the gym. I think it's just an euphemism to lowering the barrier between "what I want to do" and "what I have to do". What makes waking up early suck at times? How can I make it suck it less? How can I actually turn my mindset around so that I actually want to wake up early and go to the gym?

Sure. I don't mind getting up many mornings at this point. What I wanted to head off though is people thinking that it's somehow easy. That I'm a 'morning' person, or I am different than everyone else somehow. I'm not. I get up early and workout because I chose to, and it's not always what I want to do.

My goal, if there could be one, is to make waking up early and working out just like breathing. It's not enjoyable, nor does it suck, it just is.

>It is about executing. It is about having the discipline to do the things you don't want to do, but know they have to get done.

This is just begging the question.

In my experience, coming up with systems that make the good stuff easy and the bad stuff hard trumps discipline in the long run.

this might be the single most useful reply in the whole thread.

Specificitiy (paragraph 2) is crucial.

I'd add that goals (paragraph 3) are a result of identity (paragraph 5) so it's basically the same idea. How do you see your better self? Do these projects/tasks align with your vision of your better self?

If you feel you are X (paragraph 5) and you feel you can be superX (paragraph 4) you'll undoubtedly be able to carry on with your goals (paragraph 3). Breaking these down (paragraph 2) will help.

Not satisfied with the way I put it but that's the idea.

There's a lot of valid perspectives, but I think its some kind of false reward system. Archiving a link on neural-networks is a low effort task that superficially appears to move you toward your goal of machine learning, whereas the Coursera class takes work (ie. not fun struggling with Octave syntax)

You've hit the nail on the head for me with the last paragraph. Thank you for verbalizing it.

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