Bipolar 1, job search of over 2 years. Looking for suggestions

I've interviewed for a number of programmer jobs over the past 20 years; if there is one fact about them that should be engraved in stone, it is this: NO TWO EMPLOYERS USE THE SAME CRITERIA FOR EVALUATION OF WHETHER OR NOT TO HIRE YOU. Some employers won't use coding tests, some will, and of those that will, they'll all be different, with some the coding test will be 100% of the reason you get in or are rejected, with some it will be less, like 50% or 20% with the other percentage points going to the interview, what you say, past experience, if you connect, etc., etc.

Advice: Don't sweat the coding questions if they exist, just do the best you can, try to explain the way you think, and realize that they don't count for 100% of the hire/no-hire decision at all of the companies that give them...

Also, I like to point potential employers to Joel Spolsky's "The Guerrilla Guide to Interviewing" https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/10/25/the-guerrilla-guid...

If they read it but disagree with it, I don't count it against them.

If they read it and agree with it, that's a huge positive. I might be able to overlook other flaws in their software development process and take the job...

If they don't read it, BIG RED FLAG!!! What else are they not going to listen to if/when you propose it? A job should be a two-way street with employees doing what they are told, but at the same time constantly proposing ways to improve their employers' processes! Even if employers do not accept those proposals (totally OK, they are the employer after all), they should at least have the common courtesy to READ anything reasonable, and RESPOND to those things, with the EXACT REASONS as to WHY those proposals are unacceptable!!!

If a potential employer, pre-hire, won't read a web page you send them, and won't comment on it in such a way as to provide actionable intelligence one way, or the exact reason WHY on the other... that's a BIG RED FLAG!!!

Also... for an alternative viewpoint on Mental Illness, you might wish to read "The Myth Of Mental Illness" by Dr. Thomas Szasz, M.D. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Mental_Illness

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" -Albert Einstein

>Also... for an alternative viewpoint on Mental Illness, you might wish to read "The Myth Of Mental Illness" by Dr. Thomas Szasz, M.D.

I might check that book out because it sounds interesting, but the Wikipedia article makes him sound like an idiot.

More specifically, this strikes me as absolutely stupid:

"instead of treating cases of ethical or legal deviation as occasions when a person should be taught personal responsibility"

The brain operates through electrical signals and chemical reactions. I'm not an expert, but I think I recall hearing that certain mental illnesses show signs of different activity when we view brain activity. Different parts of the brain can also be shaped/sized slightly differently with disastrous results. Illnesses or even lifelong habits can cause physical changes in the size of different parts of the brain.

Furthermore, as a person with a mental illness, in some ways it seems like its partly a way to categorize people with different personality traits, ways of processing information, etc.

I think there's more to it than assuming that everyone that ever does anything wrong just has a discipline problem. I haven't read the book so I have to withhold judgement, but I'm guessing he's going to turn out to be a quack.

You're right about the brain differences. Scans, autopsies, and blood level studies have demonstrated there is a correlation in observed behavior.

Here's one example of many

2010 study regarding lithium and brain grey matter growth: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3055479/

It's insulting for Peter to insinuate that people with mental disorders lack discipline. Most people who know me would never guess I have a mental disorder as I keep my promises and achieve results in projects.

Any symptoms I have are usually chalked up to personality traits. I searched for help when my physical health was at a risky state.

1961 era level of ignorance

Hey Peter,

I read through both links and thought about this reply quite a bit.

To address the Mental Illness resource: I think that is a very outdated perspective. It doesn't account for advancements of technology (1961-now) for measuring efficacy. It invalidates my experience and denies what has worked well for me and rightfully empowered my autonomy.

If you are insinuating that I am crazy with your Einstein quote then I ask that you reconsider your perspective to be more tolerant and understand that people with mental disorders are not 'crazy'.

I agree, the criteria for hiring is variable. I refuse programming assignments now unless they have a measurable metric for success and exchange value (offer is there but contingent on assignment or something else of agreeable value).

I read The Guerrilla Guide, I agree and disagree with parts of it.

"Most of the time in the interview, though, should be spent letting the candidate prove that they can write code."

I disagree with this. If I get paid in services sold (value for value) to local businesses by having only two conversations then why not expect value for value in a hiring process? They want to have proof in an environment set up by them that I can measurably create code so what is something of equal value I get in return? Access of my personal IP for something of equal value.

For credibility I have years of open source contributions and projects that demonstrates my passion for code, written and phone referrals, videos of speaking, and testimonials from past clients.

Slept on it, thought about it more, and visited this thread again for the other comments.

Peter, your comment demonstrates the type of stigma that supports ignorance and prevents progress.

I thank you for your perspective as I will make a note to avoid others who share it when looking for work, friends, and a community.

Your presence in this thread was unhelpful and only served to demonstrate the ignorance I encounter in this industry.

I came here for help and you took that as an opportunity to passively judge and make a statement. Additionally, you ignored the majority of what I originally posted.

Hi ragingnarwal,

You have my most profound and humble apologies if anything I said offended you -- offending you was not my goal.

You posted a message to HN asking for help; I gave you my viewpoints having experienced much of the same thing which you have experienced. I was only trying to help.

I wasn't trying to insinuate anything with my Einstein quote (which is also a Dr. Phil quote by the way, "If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting"). It just seems that that makes logical sense, that's all.

Finally, with respect to Thomas Szasz, I suggest him only because see, you can buy and read tens of thousands of books that will tell you (by esteemed professionals with Ph.D.'s no less) that there's a thing called "Mental Illness" (maybe it's true, maybe it isn't), just as there are thousands of books (by esteemed professionals with Ph.D.'s no less) that will tell you there's a thing called the Catholic Religion, the Buddhist Religion, the Jewish Relgion, the Islamic Religion, or any other religion, that God exists, and what will happen when you die (maybe it's true, maybe it isn't).

Well Thomas Szasz is the Richard Dawkins to all of those. He's the minority report. He's the fly in the ointment. He's the gadfly that Socrates was to the Athenian State. He's Dr. Stockmann in Ibsen's "An Enemy Of The People". He's what Martin Luther was to the Catholic Church in 1517.

You see, he stands mostly alone, opposed by huge numbers of academics (not to mention people) who oppose his viewpoint.

That doesn't make him right or wrong, but you see, there is a saying that "one should leave no stone unturned in the quest for truth". That's why I offer you that stone.

So, to recap, I apologize again, profusely.

I meant you no harm/injury/wrong in my response to your comment; you asked for comments from the HN community; I gave you mine, and again I apologize if they were offensive, irrelevant, misleading, or whatever have you. They were one man's opinion. No more no less.

The Einstein quote is one of my favorites. I believe it's misplaced in this thread.

I asked for advice besides "roll over and deal with it". I wasn't able to find any actionable advice from your post other than accept the status quo.

I love perspectives that rebel against the widely accepted status quo. Szasz suggests a perspective I personally had before my diagnosis when I was stubborn and thought I could handle everything without help. That stubbornness led to a self-destructive path and hurt the people I care about and myself.

The mental health education I've received over the years has led to solutions that have improved my personal status quo substantially.

It's offending because people with mental disorders live with challenges that neurotypical people do not. Your unturned stone is rampant outside of the mental health community and is often used to invalidate experiences that make others uncomfortable.

A professional relationship once gave unwarranted advice regarding my mental health to defy what my doctors told me and change my fate by simply utilizing personal empowerment. Been there, done that, doesn't work by itself.

I hear it often and feel frustrated that the tendency to make a statement about how to live life without hearing an individuals story and empathizing is prevalent in industry social rituals. The painful growth individuals impacted by mental health go through is excruciating. Most of us desire genuine connection with human compassion and validation of our experience.

I appreciate your comment. It demonstrates a thought out response.

My intent is to confront the stigma and for us to reach growth. I hope that this dialogue helps both of us to better interact with multiple walks of life.

Hi ragingnarwal,

I profusely apologize again. I ask that all of my comments be stricken from the record. And I politely ask for your forgiveness.

Now, this being said (and hopefully you will accept), I think you're highly interesting (you write well and you think well -- I'd say if anything you have good writing and logic skills), so I would value the opportunity to talk to you in a private email dialogue.

I will even apologize again there too, if you wish.

If you wish to take me up on this, my email address is peter.d.sherman AT gmail.com (replace the AT and remove the spaces, that's just to get rid of web scraping spam bots).

Looking forward to talking to you there (if you wish).

Sincerely,

Peter

>I feel extremely agitated at the majority of conversations in interviews

Last summer in an interview I was asked "what is your superpower" by a SAAS company. Having never been interviewed by a tech company, let alone a company out of the midwest, I just looked at the guy on the other end of the video call like he was a bit off

"I don't know what you are asking"

What is your superpower?

(repeating the question doesn't really help me) "Is this role playing? I'm not a comic book fan, I'm not sure what you want"

What's a super power you have?

(hi, hello, stop repeating the question, rephrase it please) "I don't have one" (I'm not mentally ill and don't believe I'm some sort of meta-human).

And pretty sure that's where I was disqualified in the interview process.

Earlier in the interview they kept asking what I have done at a certain place, what sort of projects I've worked on "I can not answer that, I've signed multiple NDAs"

but what do you do, what do you work on there

"I can not answer that question, I have signed multiple non-disclosure agreements"

but what sort of projects, like what do you do

"I can not comment on this question at this time outside of what is listed on my CV"

And same company, earlier interview (had me talk to 3 different people over a couple of weeks), asked me to describe what I do at my primary job. This requires several minutes because I have to provide a basic frameowrk, about 30 seconds in

We try to keep these interviews short, can you get to the point

"I'm a Senior Entry Clearance Operations Import Agent, I clear international freight through Customs and Border Protection as well as any other applicable government agencies using the Harmonized Tariff Schedule and other resources"

So you look at packages?

"no"

Then what do you do

(I was trying to %@#$@#% give you a very basic background so I could tell you) "Every good that comes into the country has a 10-digit code, not unlike a telephone number, example a cellular telephone is 8517.12.0050 and..."

Again we try to keep these pretty short so let's move on

headdesk-headdesk-headdesk-headdesk-headdesk-headdesk-headdesk

Wow, that's flabbergasting.

Exactly the type of lack of conversational etiquette I've encountered.

Coming from the Midwest it was so bizarre and alien. I'm quite convinced Silicon Valley, and startups in general, have no idea how the rest of the world works. Absolutely none.

Never mind the fact that all 3 people interviewing me, were clearly working on their computers while conducting the interview as you could see them typing way more than I was saying as well as obviously moving to other windows and reading text based on hand and eye movement. Like, hey man if you're going to interview me at least give me the respect of paying attention.

I echo that.

Guess they lacked the super power of respectful human conversation.

I'm seriously medically handicapped. I currently do freelance work.

I have a comment here that links out to a list of freelance platforms:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18829691

You're amazing, thank you for the resource

Hey there, I'm on the tail end of this exact scenario (also BPI, heyoo). I don't think I'm qualified to give advice but I can share thoughts on what worked for me.

Remember this always: this world isn't meant for us. It's shitty but it's true. You are still fighting the fight and you should be damn proud of that. Keep it up, it never ends, and that makes you a strong human being, no matter what your brain tells you today or the next.

- Changing my expectations for what I can reasonably expect was the first step. Unless you're working with others who have BP or are close to someone who is, you just can't expect anybody to understand, or care. After accepting this, I found it easier to recognize a path forward within the scope of what's reasonable. Freelance as you are doing is a great path. We absolutely require a high degree of autonomy simply because of our on-again-off-again abusive relationship with that thing others fondly call sleep.

- Coding challenges are a pain, but the ones you can do from home are your best friend. Yeah I know they're repetitive and don't really motivate anybody, but work is not a great rainbow party of love all day either. I've found it's mentally stimulating to play around with them, and if solving a puzzle ends in a job, well right on!

- You qualify for disability. Yes, you qualify. You probably qualify for unemployment if you find yourself without a paycheck one month. It's there for exactly this reason! Don't listen to your brain telling you some weird tax misshap from 10 years ago will be brought to the surface and ruin things. You qualify. Figuring out what I needed to have on hand, and what the timeline for submission -> rent/food money was in the event jobs slowed or a particularly extreme episode knocked me on my ass one month, likely eliminated 60-70% of stress I didn't even know I was carrying around. You have a support network, but it does take some bureaucratic boring stuff. Having that sorted helped my peace of mind more than any other thing I think I did.

- Learning the signs of toxicity in a workplace or people I talked with when interviewing has payed major dividends. I was far too naive and trusting for too long. I eagerly got sucked into an interesting project and ignored the giant screaming shitshow just outside my head all day until the job became more insanity than annoying workplace quirks. No more amigo, workplace toxicity is very prevalent (especially in tech/startup worlds for some reason, not sure why or if its anecdotal), and it WILL come back to fuck you over. It's like the show Silicon Valley but not funny, just really sad and miserable to endure. Identifying shitty situations before getting involved has stabilized my life quite a bit.

- For me, my "redemption" in terms of finding a comfortable work situation, was by finding a way to apply my software/research background at companies largely removed from the "tech scene". Hip starups and beanbag massage chairs are cool, but being able to leave my job at 5 every single day is SO NICE.

Stress is the archenemy of BP, I'm sure you know well by now :) The goal of my life is now just to reduce stress any way I can. I can still dream of making it big and doing something great and all that jazz, but we both know if the universe handed us something that spectacular, our brain would find the most contrived way to blow it all up. That scares me, and sometimes just getting out of bed scares the shit out of me. I'm not gonna try to convince myself I'll work hard and do something great because of it.

The only thing I expect from hard work now is that I don't yell some insane shit at my neighbor this weekend. BP is a nutty thing. Keep strong!

This is a throwaway but if you want to chat about anything at all let me know, I'll keep checking the comments here for a few days, and we'll figure something out. You're not alone! You're never alone! There are literally thousands of us :)

I thought about your comment some more.

Expectations: I agree with you here. I'm stubborn and want to surround myself with people who do meet these expectations. I'm ok with interacting with people who don't meet these expectations but I want limited interaction as it will inevitably lead a disconnect in the relationship. Previous experiences where I surrounded myself with people who didn't care proved stressful and impacted my health (this was prior to treatment which has helped substantially with patience).

Disability: From what I've researched, It's a long process. I keep hoping I'll figure out a solution before then as I rather earn my living through my work.

Workplace toxicity: 100% agree. I use to go along with BS in the hiring process but have learned to trust my gut during the first few conversations. I feel intense anxiety at the thought of entering into another toxic workplace.

"Remember this always: this world isn't meant for us." - My favorite line of your comment. I've experienced BP since early teenage years (didn't know it at the time). I isolated myself for a long time only venturing out when things were manageable to keep a perceived peace in social relationships.

Thank you, your comment is validating.

I've had to suppress myself in past roles and simply don't want to do that anymore (physical toll).

I really want to build relationships (with healthy boundaries) with the people I work with and am tired of the freelance run'n'gun life. Years of continual disappointment in opportunities is killing my morale.

Finding work removed from the tech scene is a good idea. It's where I sell most of my services. I've had issues with 'relevant experience' for full time roles (but not so much with selling as a freelancer). It's weird how the relationship changes when taking on the role of interviewee. Also I prefer blunt honesty which has worked against me.

Thank you again for the comment.

I can't for the life of me figure out how to successfully submit an edit. Apologies in advance for this wall of text, it's meant to be a list (the dashes mark the bullet points more or less)

We've edited the comment for you—I hope you don't mind! You have to use a blank line in order to get a newline (https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc).

Fellow BP1-er here - this is great, thank you for taking the time to share.