Ask HN: Is it good idea to take protein supplements in your diet? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Is it good idea to take protein supplements in your diet?

15 pointssunilkumarc23 comments

I've a lean body and I've been working out for more than a year. But I've not gained a much of mass and I cannot see much of a difference in my body. I have seen most of the people taking protein supplements and mass gainers everyday who work out. I've also heard some people saying taking supplements is going to have side effects on your body.

I would like to know if taking protein supplements and mass gainers is a good idea without any side effects on my health either now / later in my life.

If this is not a good idea, then what are the other ways to gain mass and gain muscles along with my everyday workout?

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You have quite a few questions and they're all tangled up together.

1) are there side effects to taking protein supplements or mass gainers?

Practically, no. Whey protein, which is the most common protein supplement taken around working out, is just concentrated food. It's widely tested and incredibly safe. A small number of people (including myself) get a lot of mucus at the back of their throat when they start taking whey protein, but that's just a rare reaction to large amounts of dairy. The safety of every supplement would, of course, also depend on the purity and therefore on the manufacturer so do your due diligence before you buy. But in general people who warn you against using common supplements such as protein/creatine/bcaa have done no research and are simply having an adverse reaction to seeing a powder or a pill.

2) is it a good idea to take protein supplements or mass gainers?

- mass gainers - pretty much never a good idea. They're just protein + carbs. Usually with too much carbs and at inflated prices for the concentrations that you're getting. If for some reason you've decided that you need a protein + carb supplement, you can get them separately and mix your own shake at the ratio that you want.

- protein - maybe. It certainly won't hurt but you would probably expect to see changes in your body that simply won't happen. If you've worked out for a year and not seen any progress, it's likely that your training and/or diet haven't been that good. So adding a protein supplement won't do much.

3) So to give a general outline to solving your problem:

- make sure that you're training heavy (relative to your ability). Use mainly compound lifts (squat, deadlift, military press, bench press, pull-up) and get on a program that would allow you to progressively get stronger and lift more.

- eat more. This is the biggest factor in gaining weight. Calorie counting has many problems and usually isn't necessary. But you can start with recording everything you eat for a period of a couple of days to a week. And then increase your intake without adding too much junk or sugar. Make sure you're getting enough protein in your diet in the form of meat/eggs. If this doesn't work, you're probably still not eating enough.

- make sure that you're getting 7.5 - 8.5 hours of uninterrupted sleep every night

- don't worry about supplements until you start seeing progress from training and diet. And don't expect to see significant results just from adding a supplement.

This. So much this.

Why do you need to gain mass at all? That makes no sense at all. Why would you voluntarily make yourself heavier? You are taxing your organs and your whole body.

Stay lean, stay fit and stay strong, you do not need mass for anything else other than perhaps vanity.

I exercise daily for years, and that's my take on the situation.

There's not a single "test" that says that you are healthier that is based on the amount of "mass" that you have. It's such a bad metric, it's completely useless.

Your first priority should be health. I am really not convinced that there are no side-effects of taking concentrated protein (that needs to be processed by your body). People selling/using concentrated protein will claim so, but we weren't designed for that. Our organs weren't designed to be used like that.

I understand that at some point gaining weight becomes a vanity thing, but there is good reasons for gaining muscles, they're rather good energy source to sustain you if you're planning to do long distance hiking or sailing for example.

That's widely inaccurate, as far as I know. After you spend your glycogen reserves and then fat, then and only then the muscle tissue is broken and eventually used as energy. That happens if you have no other source of energy (starvation? or something), so this is definitely not normal behavior.

Actually not at all, you don't need to have burnt through all your fat for your body to enter Catabolism, if that was the case you would never lose muscles without starvation which is of course not the case. I think everyone who wants to comment on the issue of weight and diet should understand the basics of Metabolism, it is not that complicated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolism

They're a good idea in that increased protein intake is widely considered necessary to gain muscle and whey is widely considered safe. The other side of this coin is that supplements are unregulated so there are various degrees of quality on offer. Also some forms of protein are probably 'safer' than others for most people. For example soy is very bio-active and there are studies showing it having various effects to various degrees (good and bad). So basically stick to whey-products and use something like labdoor quality rankings(https://labdoor.com/rankings/protein/quality) to inform you purchase decisions, use in moderation(i.e one shake after a workout) and you should be fine.

My rationale is that I enjoy lifting more than other types of exercise, supplemental protein helps me gain more muscle and get better at it (which I also enjoy), if I didn't do that then I probably wouldn't lift and would suffer the well known risks of not exercising. So known risks vs unknown risks.

Basically health research is a shitshow. It turns out a lot of it isn't reproducible. We've been horribly wrong about what is and isn't healthful many times in the past. Be skeptical, do research, and you'll still probably be wrong but at least you tried.

(also I'm an engineer/nerd not a M.D and have no formal training in anything- this is merely data being processed by your visual system generating thought)

For what purpose are you trying to gain mass?

Unless you are very thin - like with a BMI of 19 - Isn't that a bad thing? Doesn't it significantly shorten your life?

Working out and staying thin is probably a good thing.

Is there a reason to do it if not to be healthier?

Here's a paper taking such a stance:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4115619/

Taking protein as a "supplement" won't harm you. Remember it's a "supplement" so should be supplementing / topping up your diet.

If you have not gained any mass or noticed any physical/strength changes I'll almost guarantee you are under eating, you need to eat a big amount of good quality carbs such as rice and sweet potato,a good amount of protein and as much vegies as you can.

When you cannot eat anymore and full that's when protein shakes help as it's a easy way to get calories in. Likewise it's an easy way to get calories in if you are don't have time to eat for example in between meetings.

I've struggled to gain real mass, plateaued for a long time. Biggest improvement for me was going simple after getting a PT, 200grams carbs and 200 grams of meat per meal 5 times a day with a side of green vegies, I don't count vegies, just as much as I can eat. If the food looses weight while cooking (sweet potato) weigh it after cooking, if it gains weight while cooking (rice) weigh it uncooked.

Training wise concentrate on the big compounds, bench, deadlifts and squats to get some mass.

It should be fairly easy to cover the protein needs for your goals with regular food without having to resort to protein powder so this is what I'd recommend. Just make sure you are in a slight caloric surplus. Also, using compound movements (as opposed to isolation exercises) and applying the principles of progressive overload seems to produce optimal results.

It sounds like you're not training hard enough or are not doing the correct training for your goal.

Are you specifically training for size gain? Are you doing the big three (bench press, squat, deadlift)? Are you training your muscles to complete exhaustion each set - which means that your last rep is the one you cannot physically complete? Are you increasing the weights if you're hitting the target reps on the first set? Are you taking rest days and getting enough sleep?

Honestly you should probably talk to a trainer at your gym, they'll be able to sort you out. I can also highly recommend ATHLEAN-X on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/user/JDCav24), he really knows what he's talking about.

Nobody should be going to exhaustion on each set. It's not only unnecessary, it's counter productive.

Focusing on the big 3 for gaining mass is good advice. So is hiring a trainer - just make sure they walk the talk (they look like you want to look, not skinnyfat with a BS certificate)

As with everything, it depends on the product. Whey Protein Concentrate is a very good value and common protein which is made from milk, to some extent it is basically concentrated milk power sans casein.

But protein alone wouldn't do the trick, for muscle protein synthesis you need the amino acid precursors. There is a lot of inconclusive research on the topic.

Also, the most important thing is that you don't grow muscles at the gym or while you work but when you rest, muscle growth is muscle recovery so make sure you get a lot of high quality sleep and stay hydrated for better anabolism.

[0] https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-ab&q=bcaa protein digestion site%3Aresearchgate.net

Cows eat grass and are able to amass hundreds of pounds of beef (and bones). The need for protein and calcium supplements is wildly overstated.

Is that true that casein is better than ordinary whey protein and BCAAs don't make much difference?

I've been going to the gym fairly consistently for about 20 years, here's my personal experience for what it's worth.

[the real answer is: it's complicated, no one knows for sure and it will probably depend on personal circumstances anyway - like security, in nutrition anyone who says they know something 100% is talking out of their ass, we just don't know enough yet]

For more than 30 years already, body building community has been saying that you need more than a certain amount of calories, (especially from protein) in your diet to increase muscle mass. The first thing I read against sugar, was in Arnold Swartzeneger's biography circa 1997.

Slowly over the decades the general public seems to have come round to that conclusion too - more protein seems to be a good thing for your health and strength, sugar seems to be bad.

Personally, at around 18 years old I started taking protein powders, not consistently because I couldn't afford it, roughly a few months on, a few months off. And they do appear to work. They are very easy to prepare and drink, some taste delicious. Downsides: some of them contain a lot of sugar, and as a differentiator a lot contain various custom chemical compounds which claim to give you and extra few percent effect - I strongly suspect this is mainly bulltish, potentially harmful to your health, or even if it does give you an extra few percent, it's not worth the extra money.

Here's the killer though: the moment you stop taking protein powder, the muscle seems to disappear.

I don't know why. Maybe when you take protein powder you get used to eating less food, and this stays with you when you stop taking the powder. Maybe it's because I was younger then. Maybe it's a deliberate short term boost by the manufacturer to dissuade people from giving up their product (not sure we know enough to do that, but it's possible I guess)

In any case, over the years I have switched to getting extra protein simply by eating a lot of food, it's probably healthier because it's more varied, the fact that the food also includes salads and beans and so on means that I am getting all sorts of extra micronutrients we don't know a lot about. Downsides to this is that depending on where you live and what your lifestyle is like, it can be difficult to just eat twice as much as the average person does. Lack of appetite can become a problem if the food is not delicious - for that I would really recommend staying away from anything sweet at least until you've finished all the protein on your plate, e.g. orange juice.

The amazing thing about building muscle mass from regular food (for me at least) is that the muscle doesn't immediately disappear if I go on holiday for two weeks, or even just don't each much for a month. Granted, I can't be sure that isn't just because I am older.

Another thing I've come I realise is that lots of food in general seems to work, even when it's not particularly focused on proteins like chicken, eggs etc. I've met vegans who are still fairly buff which is something I would never have believed was possible 10 years ago.

Maybe it goes without saying but food is only one part of the challenge. To get muscle mass you need three things usually (and if one is missing, gains don't come): Food&water, Resistance exercise, Sleep&rest

What the other person said about compound exercises is really true. Squats in particular are some kind of magic exercise, they seem to boost your appetite and drive muscle mass everywhere in you body. If the gym you use doesn't have a squat rack and lots of free weights, look for another gym. It's especially important to be safe and use correct technique for squats.

The main thing about gains is just don't give up searching for what works for you. Eventually it clicks.

It’s likely a lack of calories. You’ll need a surplus to gain any mass. Keep in mind that you will gain fat and muscle at the same time - if you’re already lean then you’ll gain relatively lean too. But understand you will get “fatter” too

Sounds like if you workout already and aren’t seeing results you probably aren’t eating enough. But your workout might also not be ideal.

For things diet related Alan Aragon is a decent resource. If you’re visual Jeff Nippard on YouTube isn’t bad.

For calculating your daily intake requirements: https://tdeecalculator.net isn’t terrible.

As it sounds like you’re an ectomorph, I’d suggest going higher carb.

Using the linked calculator, you should be given a macronutrient split and total calorie intake for bulking.

Try following that for 4 weeks.

I’d suggest picking up a scale that measures body fat too. They aren’t completely accurate, but better than nothing. Something like: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01N1UX8RW

You should get a couple of baseline readings from this in the mornings now. After 4 weeks of bulking get a couple more.

Once you start to plateau, increase your calories by 3-500 (try to keep the same macronutrient split).

Repeat this process.

Decide what amount of body fat you are ok with and bulk until you reach that. Then decide what you’d like to do from there

You should plan to bulk for 3-6 months at a time to notice a real difference.

I’m sure you are already, but drink plenty of water. 2-4L of fluid per day (water, milk, etc). Keep in mind that your body can only handle around ~800ml per hour - so if you’re behind don’t try to “catch up” because you’ll end up dehydrating yourself. I’d post a source for this, but I’m on phone

Make sure you eat enough fiber, don’t overdo added sugars, etc

As for should you use protein supplements:

Only if you cannot (for whatever reason) eat the required amount from food.

I use protein supplementation, but I also get a lot from milk, meat, eggs, etc

Protein supplements are not harmful and you shouldn’t experience side effects. Just don’t rely on them heavily (I use at most 2 scoops a day) and choose quality brands.

There’s a lot more to gaining mass than I’ve posted here, but what I’ve posted isn’t a bad start.

Make sure you’re working out with intensity, giving yourself adequate rest, sleeping enough, reducing stress, not training to failure all the time, and progressing steadily in your workouts.

As others have stated, adding mass and eating more is taxing to the body in the long run. So staying lean and eating less might be more beneficial for you long term

What you call mass gaining is called hypertrophy (hy-PER-truh-fee) in sports science literature.

Broadly speaking there are two types of hypertrophy you can develop: athletic (sport-specific) hypertrophy and bodybuilding hypertrophy. Both make your muscles visibly bigger. You see athletic hypertrophy in elite American football players, MMA athletes, powerlifters, track sprinters, and Olympic weightlifters, to name just a few sports. Athletic hypertrophy increases muscle cross section size, which in turn increases your capacity to generate force. Bodybuilding hypertrophy makes you look even bigger, but at the cost of speed and capacity to exert force - you will be less athletic. However, no one denies that Ahnold looked great back in the day.

Here is Bompa's general prescription for athletic hypertrophy in chapter 12 of Periodization Training in Sport (2015):

> ... training for sport-specific hypertrophy requires heavy loads with minimal rest and high number of sets to increase the density (thickness) of, and amount of protein in, the prime movers. This way, hypertrophy training for sports is long lasting because the increase in muscle size is based on the increase in strength.

That means lifting a weight eight to fourteen times exhaustively (i.e., a fifteenth rep would be impossible), taking a very short break, and then repeating that set to exhaustion. It's psychologically taxing and can be dangerous (Dorian Yates worked out only 45 minutes a day, three times a week, but they were extremely taxing workouts and he freely admits using anabolic steroids to do this). Before really taxing yourself, master the lifting techniques and build up core strength (Stuart McGill) and flexibility. Endurance work also prepares you by improving your ability to recover between sets.

Bompa goes on to describe two phases of hypertrophy training in order to simplify program design. The first "uses various bodybuilding techniques to optimize muscle exhaustion and growth", and the second "refers to sport-specific hypertrophy", which depends on the activity you want the larger muscles for.

Athletic hypertrophy training should be restricted to less than two macrocycles a year, or less than ten weeks total. The rest of the year should be spent training in specific sports or improving your general physical preparedness. Generally a year-long or biannual training period starts with prehab/rehab/general physical preparedness, moves on to hypertrophy, moves from there on to maximum strength training, and finishes with the bulk of the athlete's time spent doing specialized strength training (for power, power-endurance, or muscular endurance of short, medium, or long duration) and sport-specific drills.

All this muscular training is yin to the yang of energy systems training, which is trained concurrently and has its own set of prescriptions, depending on what physiological adaptations you desire.

Note that athletic hypertrophy does not make you very strong - you need maximum strength training for that effect, which has a different prescription. See in particular Bompa, Zatsiorsky, or Siff for advice about maximum strength training.

As for protein, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (formerly the American Dietetic Association), the American College of Sports Medicine, and Dieticians of Canada have for years submitted a joint position paper on nutrition for sports that recommended a daily consumption of no more than 1.5 grams protein per kilogram of body mass for weightlifters. Bompa cites other sources who indicate as much as 2.0 grams protein per kilogram body mass can benefit some athletes, but that is not the consensus position.

This reads like you're trying to show off how familiar you are with the literature rather than give good advice. The distinction that you make about the different types of hypertrophy isn't necessary or relevant and the sources that you cite have a completely different target audience from the author of the original post.

What is technically correct and what is useful advice are completely different things.

Everything you just wrote is either wrong or whimsical.

TL;DR: To get hypertrophy, lift a weight more than seven times but less than fifteen times and to exhaustion; take a short break; repeat to exhaustion. For protein, eating 1.5 gram per kilogram body mass is the consensus in the scientific literature, though some figures go up to as much as 2.0 grams.

Everything else I wrote reasonably assumes OP is interested in the topic and would appreciate primary sources. Those are not far-fetched assumptions.

what my body taught me over the years is that it's healthier to subtract rather than add things. more on point to your question, my approach is to defer anything that is applied via "artificial" means to a stage where I've exhausted all other options. (no sugars, no coffee unless just before workout, etc, ...) In your case I'd eat fresh tofu or more fish or whatever appropriate. And once you are at that limit at a stable weight add your supplement and then see if it makes any change. Also to gain weight you need to give yourself enough recovery time between workouts.

I did take supplements during the years of extensive training, and I wasn't ashamed to pick from the top-shelf price-range (not to boast but to show who silly I was wasting money like I did), but they only had a placebo effect, left a hole in my wallet. In my 20ies to mid-30ies I was never able to gain enough body weight even I worked out 5x/week I still remained looking like a skinny & wired free-climber (faster metabolism I guess so I couldn't keep the weight no matter how much protein I took). Back then I wanted to have a proper man chest[1] like actors in action movie posters but instead looked like a slightly fit Iggy Pop (picture Iggy Pop doing supplements and a strict routine instead of heroin and orgies ... and you have the image of what I looked like vs what I wanted to look like)

Reason for why I stopped take vitamins is that they can never give me the other nutrients and minerals (yes there are extra supplements for that but - who got time for that?). A healthy fresh (even raw) diet doesn't just have the vitamins. It has useful fiber and also contain a gazillion other things ... (sure you can get fiber by eating bran at every breakfast - but why torture myself more than during exercise?)

Ofc if you like bran don't let me put you off, but my point is that most of the health-foods-supplements industry is a con and has profit at their interest and not always our health (pills that don't do damage but also don't improve anything have always been huge business (e.g. the whole homeopathic profession is built on such cons)

[1] doesn't Manchester like a perfect name for a moob-bra? /s so sorry

Why the fuck would you ask random Internet strangers, especially on HN of all places, rather than paying some money to ask a qualified dietitian to get evidence based advice from someone with a professional qualification, and professional registration?

Because I fucking care about this community. And there are people here to fucking helping each other!

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