Cigarette butts are the single greatest source of ocean trash

Then it was also 10 Asian rivers that account for most plastic: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plas...

I guess I understand it is a hard problem to calculate, but it is an area where I wish the approach was more reasoned and less governed by fad and hype. Sure clean and prevent straws and cigarette butts if that’s really a problem, but divvy our resources in proportion to where data says the issues are...

It's television "news". Why would anyone expect better? The headline tomorrow will say/read, "A new study shows ..." and state the exact opposite.

If we combine that data with data on annual amount of plastic being thrown into the ocean, we get 4 tons of fishing nets per year being lost by the part of the finish industry that use fishing nets.

Buying new fishing nets are quite expensive, and by experience, fishermen tend to spend a large part of the year repairing them. I wonder what the lost rate is per fisherman, national region, and caught fish.

The general problem with this kind of criticism is that it can be leveled at any article citing a statistic.

No matter what value an article chooses to highlight they could have highlighted a different one. True... but so what?

Here I guess the root of your objection is that the article seems to conflate the ocean-sides with the entire ocean. That's fair: the article is really about ocean sides, but in a few places it refers generally to the ocean. It appears to be purposeful, too, since it's in the headline and lede while the rest of article is straight. Still, that the headline and lede is overly strong is, unfortunately, almost a universally applicable criticism these days. Headlines and ledes are written for attention-grabbing not accuracy. That's a problem not of individual articles, but of a system that lives on click-through.

A less superficial criticism would be to examine the degree to which the main point of the article -- that cigarette butt pollution is a problem that should be addressed -- is fair, or whether it's making this out to be a significantly more substantial problem than it really is. (Remember, the context here is activism to reduce pollution, where there was recently a lot of focus and traction on plastic drinking straws, for which there was some backlash, with people arguing that there was a lot of focus on a tiny part of the problem. So a really good question here is, is this just more plastic straw BS or is there a really issue here?)

And keep in mind that if cigarette butts are a coastal pollution problem it doesn't mean something else, like fishing nets in the ocean, isn't a problem.

The paper you cite is just about the Great Pacific Garbage Patch.

Or into nature :-(

> are there any smokers on HN who can explain the phenomenon?

Smokers aren't exactly known for their good judgement, manners and consideration for others in the first place, are they?

I think it's because the butt is usually made to resemble some natural material like cork.

Since the rest of it (paper, tobacco, and ashes) is easily degradable, I think the natural assumption is the butt is degradable as well, and the notion that every other smoker seems to think so isn't helping.

So to answer the question: I suspect it's simply a lack of information. As a data point I'll add that I stopped deposing them right away a long time ago, because I suspected they might not be easily degradable, but this is actually the first time I've read this is the case.

If I'm correct I see no harm in correcting friends who smoke in their behaviour. They are simply unaware.

What is there to explain? Its convenient.

I think people think they are biodegradable.

I think it is related to people not cleaning after their dogs and throwing their thrash on the street or in the woods.

These are people who just don't give a shit about other people and only act like they care when it is convenient or necessary.

I know a couple of smokers that will make sure they have a place to dispose their butt after they are finished and I know some that will dispose them only when somebody is watching (yeah, we have windows in offices, too...)

(I don't smoke and have never smoked)

For some people it's as simple as not wanting to carry around some dirty stinking cigarette butts. Portable ashtrays are sometimes produced, but they never seem to catch on.

And we shouldn't ignore the power of the really strong habit they've formed of flicking them away.

Honestly I have always just attributed it to most smokers being rude and selfish. The same reason why they never bother to ask if it's OK to start emitting poisonous smoke near you.

From the article:

In one focus group cited in industry documents, smokers said tossing their butts to the ground was “a natural extension of the defiant/rebellious smoking ritual.”

A personal anecdote: when I was a student in CS, back in the early nineties, I was working in a gas station the WE.

A fellow student, now leading IT department in a European airport, was visiting me and we were chatting outdoor, just nearby the little shop I was in to cash.

And then he lights a cig. I asked him if he was ok doing that in a gas station, and he responds me something like well, we are far enough (and that was true, but still)

And when he finished it, he dropped it on the ground and scratch it with is foot :

« You know I’m the one who’ll have to pick it to trash it, and then have to clean the black mark it leaved on the white cement, do you ? »

« Oops, sorry »

He is a person I respect for a lot of things, and one of the last friend from my student time.

But his smoking M.Hyde side never stops to puzzle me.

When I used to smoke I did not litter butts when I could avoid it, but they are so disgusting (they stink, they make your fingers stink, if you wrap it in some paper or plastic and put it in your pocket your pants will stink) that you just want to get rid of it. Most things are easier to get rid of because you can put them in a bag or something until you come across a trash can.

Yes, diacarding butts by stamping on them was the social norm way before environmentalism was a thing (like 1900s), and such it has its own cultural inertia passed down between smoking generations. Stamping on them was considered best practice to prevent fire i think.

I stopped doing it though 2010ish once i realized they don't break down (now i dont smoke).

When something is taxed as much as cigarettes, it leads to a sense of entitlement for the user and an assumption that the cleanup cost is baked into the taxes.

Unless people object to it, the behavior will continue. I'm that guy who'll tell someone who drops a cigarette butt to pick it up; to which the response is usually indignation or they ignore me, I figure at least I annoyed them.

It would be interesting to have a push for making it biodegradable, or who knows, maybe they can be recycled or just incinerated for energy

You see every other smoker do it and you think, what’s the point? and you just throw it away. I can’t carry it in my pocket. If trashcan is in visible sight, I’m ok with walking little bit to get rid of it. But usually it’s the case that there isn’t any good way to dispose the sigaret butt. I remember when I started smoking I never littered the street, I took extra steps to get it into nearest trashcan, but three years later I have changed.

People are assholes to smokers. Like, it's socially acceptable to be assholes to smokers these days.

I've had random people on an almost daily basis harass me for smoking. Flicking my butts on the ground was a big fuck you to all of the non smokers that harassed me.

This is such a ridiculous and disgusting thing here in Berlin.

University educated people from (seemingly) good homes smoke the cigarettes and immediately chuck them out on the streets. Sometimes not even caring if they still burn.

This is my friends, my coworkers, policemen, etc. Whenever I openly question their behaviour they usually respond (quite proudly): "The city is our big ashtray".

Well if you ask people from developing countries you will get a familiar answer that its someone else's job to clean up the street not mine.

Former smoker here and guilty of throwing many butts on the ground even though I find any other form of litter unthinkable.

When I was much younger I believed that cigarette butts biodegraded in a couple years. No big deal, right? I distinctly remember reading this on a sign at a campsite when I was about 18. Turns out, that's an ideal scenario and butts can take up to 10 years to break down naturally, and even then various "degraded" toxins are still present in the environment indefinitely.

But that campsite sign was enough to fuel 15 years of cognitive dissonance that allowed me to toss butts on the ground like they were pieces of old lettuce.

That, and the mind-bending power of nicotine addiction, which is vastly more powerful than most people realize.

Second-order tangent incoming.

Back in the 1990s, when smoking inside was still allowed, a bar in Finland had a problem with people tossing their cigarette butts to the wide urinal in mens' toilet. Of course it was constantly clogged.

Tired of the disgusting cleaning routine, the owners eventually found an approach that helped. They put a new plaque on the wall above the urinal: "If you piss cigarette butts, please consult your doctor."

umm yes. no idea the butt was not bio-degradable. also i don't just toss the butt everywhere i can. i learned that many unexpected fires were due to ciggs.

As a smoker, that's always the last choice for me. I'll usually hold onto the butt until I find a trash can, or use a pocket smell-proof ash tray instead.

They will eventually biodegrade, but it just looks trashy to have them on the ground.

I'm an ex-smoker and I felt I was in the minority of smokers that would roll out the tobacco and put the butt in a trashcan or my pocket until I got to a trashcan. My older brother did the same thing, so I probably was influenced more heavily by my family norms. It is slightly inconvenient and you wind up with even stinkier hands and smelly pockets using that method which might explain why people don't do it.

Recently I was with a friend smoking on my porch and he flicked his butt into my front yard. There was an ashtray right next to him which he had used previously. He had also smoked on my porch a number of times before. He is liberal friend and pretty vocal about it though I don't recall him speaking much about environmental concerns.

I don't really have an explanation, my guess is that it's a number of factors. I would chalk the scenario on the porch up to muscle memory and possibly being lost in conversation. I think that the small size is the main thing. It is not acceptable to toss any sizable piece of garbage on the street.

I'm stupid but when I used to smoke as a teen in Netherlands it was NORMAL to throw them on the street and sometimes step on them. I imagined back then they'd biodegrade (eg rot). Obviously they didn't.

Don't smoke anymore so that's nice.

Former smoker (who still smokes occasionally) — I think there’s also some hive mind with it as well. I started smoking as a teenager and never really considered the effect of throwing butts on the ground. It’s just what I saw everyone else doing. If I smoke now I always put my cigarette out and throw the butt away.

It's the old "dilution is the solution to pollution" mantra. The world seems so huge, and a cigarette butt so small. It's obviously a fallacy. Because there are just so damn many people.

What persists are the mouthpiece (plastic) and filter (synthetic fiber). Tobacco degrades very quickly, and paper within a year or so.

So when I smoked, I never left butts behind. For one thing, I was typically short of money, so I kept the tobacco in a small bag. I mainly smoked hand-rolled cigarettes, and typically balled up the paper, and put it in a pocket. Sometimes I just dropped the paper, I admit. And sometimes I even saved it, for reuse.

But I've also made the argument that people are quite comfortable polluting in ~invisible ways. For example, let's say that there's a road full of motor vehicles. And someone flicks out a butt. Fellow drivers will typically grumble, or yell at them. But they don't realize that they're all polluting far more, through emissions of SO2, NOx, CO2, hydrocarbons, particulates, and so on.

Former smoker as well. What else are you going to do with a cigarette butt? Most cars don't have ashtrays anymore. If there is a proper way for me to dispose of a cigarette within a one block radius (some sort of trash receptacle) I will do it. But most people certainly aren't going to keep smelly, tar-filled, stain causing cigarette butts in their pockets, purses, etc. or on their person for any length of time. And I've never seen anyone with

Not all of the butts end up as litter, but proper disposal still means they go to landfills. Recycling options are still extremely limited. The only one I've heard of is a mail-in recycling program. Most Unless manufacturers develop a more recyclable cigarette, the best smokers can do is to make sure their butts are properly disposed of in ashtrays, receptacles, and trashcans.

The biggest issue IMO is the makeup of the butts themselves. Most butts are made of cellulose acetate, a non-biodegradable plastic. I don't know if it's cost effective to make a recyclabe butt. If one could, perhaps a cigarette butt deposit similar to CRV on bottles would change behavior. It would not only alter the consumer behavior but would encourage smokers and nonsmokers alive to comb the streets, beaches, etc. for butts further cleaning out streets.

Otherwise, I don't think it's too much to ask for manufactureres/consumers to pony up the extra cost for a degradable cigarette butt instead of externalizing the cost to all of us for this admittedly disgusting habit.

Not a smoker, but I was personally surprised when other people told me they'd have no compunction against discarding an apple core or other similar biodegradable trash on the ground.

Given that some people believe cigarettes are also biodegradable, that attitude may explain it.

As a society, we've also moved away from having appropriate storage for discarded cigarette trash - ash trays are no longer standard in anything and were already becoming a curiosity more than a decade ago. I assume cigarettes in a normal trash bin present a fire hazard and can't be disposed of there.

I honestly don't care. I've always known they last for years, I know they end up all over the place, and that it's disgusting, but I don't care. I'll throw it away if I'm close to a trashcan, ashtray, etc, but otherwise I just flick it away and go about my business. I never litter otherwise, I always chase down trash if the wind takes it from my hands, and I pissed when I see someone throw trash on the ground. When I was a kid, I put my chewed gum in my pocket without a wrapper because I didn't want someone to step on it. I like to think I'm considerate to the world and the people I share it with. I never smoke next to someone unless they say it's okay, otherwise I find somewhere else to go, or just don't smoke. There's just something about throwing butts on the ground, I can't get myself to feel bad. I know I'm doing something wrong, and I know I should feel guilty, but I don't. Guess that feeling goes for smoking as well... (I apologise for this intoxicated ramble, a few of the other people who responded to you had irked me)

I smoked both when I was younger and dumber. Unfiltered cigarettes turn your fingers, lips and teeth brown.

Cigarettes taste like burning paper, and at their best smell just OK, but most smokers aren't walking around with cigarillos, despite the better ones tasting and smelling very nice.

It's about nicotine delivery, and even the new hit with the kids, Juul, seems not as nice as a cigarette to me as a very infrequent nicotine user. Maybe box mods are different, I've only every tried the types of vapes you can get at tobacco shops and gas stations and such.

As a side note, I'm surprised snuff isn't more popular. It gives a noticeable but not overwhelming stimulation, discretely, doesn't have the cultural connotations or need to spit of chew, and seemed a little milder too. I guess putting stuff up your nose has it's own connotations. I also don't even know where you can buy it. Certainly not a gas station.

Turns out drug addicts aren't super rational

I may have some insight here. As a smoker that's trying to quit (14 days clean so far), a Juul just doesn't appeal to me - I'd rather quit than switch. Apart from the nicotine addiction, smoking involves a lot of rituals - for example, I personally choose a lucky[1], and I love the sound and smells of striking the Zippo that I carried. A Juul doesn't offer those experiences, and cigars are much too heavy for me to smoke daily.

This scene from Frasier is spot on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptqRrwvYVTs&t=126

1: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lucky%20ciga...

I think nothing should beat plastics used for food /bevs, but who knows.

In the UK it can be met with a £80 fine but I've never heard of anyone (other than the sensationalist news articles in the likes of The Sun) ever getting hit with it. I guess it's not worth the red tape for police to hand out fines.

This is answered in the article. The startup Greenbutts has developed it.

Roll your own from pure tobacco without a filter, saves your health, wallet and the environment.

I quit years ago, so not sure but, don't vaporizers are much more convenient and less harming (avoiding tar)? Guess price is worse or I don't understand why they haven't wiped out cigarrettes.

That's because it's a thinly veiled ad for a San Diego-based startup, which the "news" agency failed to disclose as much.

Literally grandfathered in :/

I want all the things I don't like to be illegal.

By who pays the person, it seems like a promotional article. The article is a joke. Just because it floats on beaches doesn't mean the entire ocean is polluted the same way. Also we already know what is floating in the oceans, there are numerous studies.

Could be by damage

Now I'm imagining those long cigarette holders from the classic movies making a comeback. Funny image.

I naively thought vapes would at least leave cleaner streets than cigarettes. Lately I’ve been seeing plastic juul cartridges littering the sidewalks in nyc. There’s no winning.

Probably not, because the large majority of homeless people are smokers, and they've got enough troubles.