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Comment by aphextron | Hacker News Reader

I just totally de-Googled my life recently, and ended up almost entirely in the Apple ecosystem after evaluating my options. Switched to DDG full time for web search, Safari for browsing, iCloud for email, and Apple Maps is actually usable now with decent real time traffic. I never thought in a million years it would come to this, but the lines have clearly been drawn over the last two years. Apple has time and again come out emphatically in support of The User in a way that Google simply has not (or will not) step up to. It's quickly becoming their single largest competitive advantage in consumer web services.

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Dissenting opinion. I currently have an iPhone and a Macbook and I cannot wait for the next cycle. I'm ditching Apple and its products entirely. Between the predatory rent-seeking app store, hostile my-way-or-the-highway developer environment, and just downright awful products (mail, message, contacts, and all the other apple nonsense apps preinstalled i never care for) as well as a buggy and unreliable icloud that has lost me data, I can't wait to leave.

I actually quite like a lot of the software, but about two years ago I started a job where I needed to run windows, and I needed some 3d muscle (A GTX1060). A widows laptop was literately half the price of a mac laptop of a similar speed.

Well, that's when I found out how locked into the mac ecosystem I was. It was very painful to switch back to windows. Even my keyboard shortcut muscle memory was difficult to overcome.

The parent made the case for how Apple sides with its users. Your complaints may be legit, but none are from an end user perspective.

The rent seeking trickles down to customers. See Netflix not taking subscriptions through Apple anymore. If this happens with one service, customers may be puzzled, if this happens with all services, customers will get annoyed. The way Apple treats their developers is how they treat their platform.

The apps and iCloud portion of my comment should be relevant, as is the observation that I can't load whatever I want on the phone. I have to go through this horrible app store which Apple took years to redesign and ended up being even worse than its predecessor for discovering content (and policing content!)

I won't try to sell you on a MacBook, but I tried ditching my iPhone for an official Google Android phone because I felt similarly to the way you do and it was one of the worst decisions I've ever made.

I chose an official Google phone because I wanted to be sure that I could get security updates and run the latest version of the OS. But it didn't take long before the phone's UI performance became extremely noticeable. Simple stuff like triggering the back action or switching between apps would take multiple seconds. Chrome sometimes took up to 20 seconds to load. I can't help but think that Android made some fundamentally bad decisions in their software stack given just how bad the experience can be. And 13 months into my Android phone experience, the phone started boot looping and basically turned into a brick. Called Google, who ducked out of any responsibility because their warranty only covered the first 12 months, despite the fact that they've known about this issue for more than 2 years and kept selling the phone anyways. Compare that to the way that Apple responded to batterygate and you can see the difference in customer service between them and Google is night and day.

Maybe it's just me, but I've also talked to others that have gone to Android and found only a world of hurt. With Apple making iPhone battery replacement very affordable, you'll get a far smoother experience sticking with an outdated iPhone models than you'll get with top-of-the-line Android phones. I hope for your sake that you have a more positive experience with Android than I did. But less than 18 months later and I'm back using an iPhone 8 and have no plans to ever consider Android again.

> Simple stuff like triggering the back action or switching between apps would take multiple seconds. Chrome sometimes took up to 20 seconds to load...

Something is definitely wrong with that phone, or maybe that Google model. I'm definitely not seeing slow behavior like that on my Samsung S8 that I've owned for over a year. It's been getting regular security updates too (just got the December update a couple of weeks ago). I have seen similar slowdowns on my older Nexus 5 & iPhone when the internal storage got too full.

I'm a long time Apple user (over a decade, one of those people who queued up for a day one iPhone), but I am ecstatically happy with my Samsung S8 and find it to be the most "Apple-like" device I've bought from a non-Apple company. That said, if you prefer the iPhone, that's okay too. People like different things and use different features.

>Chrome sometimes took up to 20 seconds to load...

Um yeah, that's not the average user experience.

yeah. i have an "older" galaxy s8 and it works perfectly. chrome/firefox opens instantly.

my only issue now, after almost 2y with the phone is that the battery is starting to lose capacity.

The issues you are describing, I remember having them in Android 2'ish era. For the past many years, I have had an extremely stable and positive experience with Android.

I have even used cheap android devices like Moto E4 without any problems at all. I am not sure what you are doing with your phones. Android is the most common phone OS, it's not nearly as bad as what you experienced.

That is definitely not typical. I have the Moto x4, a budget phone, and it's as snappy as that day I bought it, at launch, through 3 major version upgrades.

I do remember seeing your complaint in the pixel subreddit, though. Seems Google has a QC problem.

Agreed. I had a Nexus 6 for a couple years, and my only complaint was that it got a little slower with Android 8, but it was still quite usable.

I accidentally destroyed my phone, so I got a Moto x4 and couldn't be happier. It's faster than my Nexus 6, has way better battery life, and my only real issues are with Hearthstone (frequent disconnects, seems to be pretty common) and Smart Lock sucking, and Smart Look seems to be a common issue across Android phones (after a reboot, Smart Lock won't work if it was enabled, so disable it from Trust Agents, reboot, and reenable it and it works great again; I've run into this on Nexus 6, Pixel 2, and Pixel 3).

However, I'm trying to de-Google my life, and I don't want to run to another monster (Apple), so I'm watching the Librem 5 to see if that's an option once this phone gets long in the tooth. That being said, Android doesn't suck if you want a mainstream phone, and the Moto x4 is quite nice for how cheap it is.

So basically, "the Android phone I got it a lemon, so that means Android is a huge failure overall!"

Your experience is atypical. If your experience was the norm, Android wouldn't exist at this point.

Shall I point to my 2 MacBook pro keyboard failures and say the Apple laptop experience is a total failure?

I find the preinstalled apple software to be fantastic. I choose it over alternatives at work and at home.

The only exception is the Podcasts app. I hate that app with a burning passion.

You might want to try pocket casts, not a free app, but problem solved once and for all :D

While I haven’t de-Googled I do mostly stick to Apple products because of the quality and advantages of the ecosystem.

I’m more interested in using the best product for what I want to do. While that is sure to be subjective it feels like Apple is the best to me.

That being said, I’m not able to stick to DDG. Every time I do a search and I don’t find what I’m looking for on DDG I think, “I bet Google would have found it”. However when I’m on Google and I don’t find what I’m looking for I think, “I just didn’t write a good query”. That mental hurdle is hard to get over.

Safari vs Chrome is another one where I choose Google. The web developer tools for the browser and the integration with Node/V8 seem so much better. If I were not a developer I imagine I could prefer Safari but it’s too hard to pretend when it’s what I do all day.

> Every time I do a search and I don’t find what I’m looking for on DDG I think, “I bet Google would have found it”. However when I’m on Google and I don’t find what I’m looking for I think, “I just didn’t write a good query”. That mental hurdle is hard to get over.

Same here. It doesn't help that 80% of the time I'm having the former issue, I copy the query to Google and the top hit is perfect, a hit which didn't even show up 30 results down on ddg.

I should try copying the other way, but Google does seem objectively better (doesn't stop me trying to use ddg and only go to Google manually as a fallback).

I use DDG nearly exclusively, and writing better queries is definitely workable. I just throw a couple more keywords and I usually find what I need.

Google does a ton of personalization of search results, whereas DDG doesn't, so it's not really a fair comparison. I've found that, with my better queries, StartPage (anonymous Google results) isn't much better, so the difference is likely Google getting to know you better.

The only personalization they can do is based on my region (IP address), user agent (all the better if "crop image" gives me Linux results), and the fact that this is the only data they have on me. There are no cookies or localStorage. Unless they do browser fingerprinting (which I hope would be big news and would legally have to be in their privacy policy, so I'd know about it), it can't be that custom. I'm quite convinced google search really is just that much better.

The country localisation gets in the way as often as it doesn't for normal usage, but given that I use ddg by default, many of the queries I use Google for are the ones I actually want localised. (Ddg is even worse at searching in other languages, which gets slightly better if you manually change the search language on the results page, but not much.)

I'll give startpage a try. I thought Google blocked (or at least CAPTCHAd) third parties from using the search without paying for every query (their search api is super expensive), so I didn't look for a proxying service before. Thanks for the tip :)

Same for me. I prefer Apple hardware because I still consider it the best tool (maybe with the exception of the MBP keyboard). I won't go into debates with others about my choices (here in Europe most people prefer Windows laptops and Android phones). However I can't ditch Gmail, Chrome and Google Search. They still offer the best service :/

I've looked ProtonMail, Firefox, and DDG so far. ProtonMail and DDG feel like a downgrade in features, but they're good enough and I like the biggest feature they offer: privacy. I legitimately like Firefox better than Chrome.

The last Google product I'm having trouble ditching is Drive. I like accessing spreadsheets everywhere, including my phone, and I find LibreOffice less intuitive, and self hosted LibreOffice Online sucks. I'm looking at OnlyOffice, but the resource requirements make hosting on a VPS expensive, so I'll have to get a machine set up locally if I want to do it (and all the headaches that brings with exposing it to the world through my ISP).

I'm also on Google Fi, but I'm not too attached to it. If the Librem 5 ends up being as awesome as they promise, I'll likely leave for something else, like Ting (I used them for a couple years).

I am sorry, but how is this relevant to this thread?

Native content on HN?

It's a reminder that Apple does offer something for the high price. Maybe their tech isn't breaking new ground, but their attitude towards their customers' privacy rights may help sales going forward.

I'm also considering switching from Android. I'd rather pay more and be the customer instead of the product.

You can degoogle your life without resorting to the apple ecosystem:

https://prism-break.org/en/categories/android/ https://prism-break.org/en/categories/servers/

I haven't completely de-googled, but mostly. Now using: iPhone, DuckDuckGo, Outlook, Firefox. Still using google maps, and I haven't yet moved all of my email from Gmail to Outlook, but getting there.

Unless you want to deal with custom ROMs, breaking apps because you used a Google services alternative and everything all over again if you want to upgrade to another Android version which will never be the latest you will end up on a phone which is the Google Android and then you can only do so much for privacy.

Android phone today is like living in a room full of CCTV cameras and mics and tons of sensors and trying to close the windows and doors while the control of those feeds are in the hands of Google.

Which is why I'm so excited about the Librem 5. If you have modest requirements, it should work for you. App availability will be pretty limited, but if you're willing to go the custom ROM route, that's probably not a huge concern.

Once I find an alternative to Google Drive that I like well enough, I'll seriously consider the Librem 5 or going back to a flip phone. My phone requirements are pretty modest, but since I already give Google a ton of data through Drive, I figure using their phones isn't that much worse (I just limit how many additional services I use).

Why Safari instead of moving over to Firefox?

Integration with iOS (history/bookmarks/tabs sync) is a good reason.

Firefox on iOS does that with its desktop version.

> Why Safari instead of moving over to Firefox?

Mozilla has lost my trust lately. I don't doubt the sincerity of the developers there. But they've grown into a large revenue generating organization now, and their principles appear compromised at the executive level. See this debacle over the recent Booking.com ad that finally made me dump Firefox [0]

[0] https://www.neowin.net/news/firefox-640-is-now-showing-a-boo...

Why Firefox instead of Safari?

You can't sync Safari bookmarks with Firefox, Firefox has tons of awesome extensions on desktop, Firefox exists on all major platforms, and Firefox on Android has extensions as well (ad block on mobile is awesome).

Why Safari instead of Firefox? On iOS, they're the same browser underneath anyway, so there difference lies in extra features on top.

How is requiring (and selling) a portfolio of overpriced dongles "in support of the user"? Apple has let margins dictate design decisions for many years now. That's not user first. I don't know a single iPhone x user who likes being jackless.

Pretty much anyone with AirPods or wireless headphones couldn’t care less about the jack missing. It’s really not a big deal, anyone with wired headphones I know, just keeps the free dongke attaches to the headphones as if it was part of the cable.

When I got my iMac in 1998, it came with a crappy mouse and no ADB ports to plug my old mouse into, it only had those new fangled USB ports. Apple didn't make dongles and it was something like three months before a third party dongle was available, which cost more than a new USB mouse. For about two years, I had to run my Zip drive and printer on the dodgiest series of parallel-to-USB converters ever made. My point is that it has been ever thus. This is not new. I like that Apple push standards. USB-C is clearly the right direction to go. I’m just bitter they’re not available on iPhones. Yet.

As for headphone jacks. I haven’t used wired headphones with my iPhone for over 5 years. Dropping the jack has literally had no impact on me whatsoever. In fact it’s one less hole to fill with pocket lint. Before you go on a tirade of audiophile nonsense, I’ll remind you that most people listen to audio and video that is streamed over cellular data in a lossy format. All arguments are rendered moot. I am a content iPhone X user, so now you know of at least one.

The way I see it, this justification of removing the headphone jack

> In fact it’s one less hole to fill with pocket lint.

Is much more nonsensical than

> audiophile nonsense

Seriously, I haven't head of one good reason that the headphone jack hindered wireless audio.

It doesn't justify it. I wasn't trying to, but like many I know, I don't miss it. And let's be frank, the reasons for keeping the jack have been solely centred around cognitive biases. At the end of the day, prophecies of doom have not been met and the world keeps turning.

What are these cognitive biases that you are talking about?

Groupthink, blindspot (as beautifully exampled above), choice-supportive, confirmation, conservatism, selective perception, stereotyping, etc...

> As for headphone jacks. I haven’t used wired headphones with my iPhone for over 5 years. Dropping the jack has literally had no impact on me whatsoever. In fact it’s one less hole to fill with pocket lint.

Your needs don't define the needs of everyone else in this world. It wouldn't be a controversial move if it didn't piss off a bunch of people, now would it? If the airpods/dongle works for you, great. That doesn't mean they don't piss off and inconvenience a large group of people because if they didn't, there wouldn't be the corresponding backlash.

> Before you go on a tirade of audiophile nonsense, I’ll remind you that most people listen to audio and video that is streamed over cellular data in a lossy format. All arguments are rendered moot. I am a content iPhone X user, so now you know of at least one.

In case you didn't know, audiophilia is actually a very expensive hobby so most people aren't audiophiles. Most people pissed off about the removal of the 3.5 mm jack are not audiophiles. It is the everyday people wanting to listen to their device through headphones that are inconvenienced by this move. Audiophiles listen to music on their desk with their $2k open-back headphones and $2k dac/amp stack. And when on the move, they use digital audio players to play lossless flac. Most people pissed off are not pissed off because of sound quality, they are pissed off because now they have to use a dongle to do something as basic as listening to their device privately.

Not to mention the fact that Apple/Google/HTC/etc claim that the reason why they removed 3.5 mm was to improve sound quality. In their opinion, 3.5 mm is archaic and is holding back the audio industry. This seems like a bullshit excuse, because you don't hear any audiophiles complaining about that, and they are the people would'd drop $2k for a 5% improvement in their dac. If they removed 3.5 mm because it's holding audio back, where are the improvements and benefits from using their latest hyped flashy "adaptive" audio technologies? Where are the white papers? If you ask anyone working in high fidelity sound, I don't think anyone would have suggested that this is what we needed.

> Your needs don't define the needs of everyone else in this world...

But yours do? You are part of, in my experience, a extremely vocal minority who are doing exactly what you are accusing me of.

> In case you didn't know, audiophilia is actually a very expensive hobby so most people aren't audiophiles.

I am actually very aware of the fact that it is an expensive hobby. A lot off the tat is baseless nonsense.

> Most people pissed off about the removal of the 3.5 mm jack are not audiophiles. It is the everyday people wanting to listen to their device through headphones that are inconvenienced by this move.

How? They gave away a dongle until the X series phone. It works just fine. I see on my daily commute a heck of a lot of headphone users. I see a lot of dongles and I see a lot of wireless headphones, AirPod being extremely common. I can only presume that the majority either use the headphones that came with their phone (a lot of apple headphones out there) or keep the dongle attached.

> ...now they have to use a dongle to do something as basic as listening to their device privately.

So? A bit of history; back in the day, expensive 'on/over the ear headphones came fitted with TRS Audio jack (6.35mm). In order to use decent headphones on your walkman/discman, you had to use a converter (a dongle in modern parlance). The horror!

> Not to mention the fact that Apple/Google/HTC/etc claim that the reason why they removed 3.5 mm was to improve sound quality. In their opinion, 3.5 mm is archaic and is holding back the audio industry. This seems like a bullshit excuse, because you don't hear any audiophiles complaining about that...

Do you have any evidence other than the opinions of individuals who spend thousands on snake oil?

> If they removed 3.5 mm because it's holding audio back, where are the improvements and benefits from using their latest hyped flashy "adaptive" audio technologies? Where are the white papers? If you ask anyone working in high fidelity sound, I don't think anyone would have suggested that this is what we needed.

For portable music players, I doubt many would care...

I second this. duckduckgo (ios / mac / gaming pc), firefox, apple maps have been awesome.

Gmail has been hard to get away from though because of my account but I hope to take care of that soon.

Serious question: with all this effort, has your life improved in any tangible way? What did you gain from using these products?

Not OP, but I like not being tracked. Also, DDG has a slew of awesome features, such as bangs (shortcuts to sites, e.g. !a for Amazon, !w for Wikipedia, !aw for Arch Wiki, etc). In fact, I prefer DDG to Google on that basis alone, though occasionally I have to !g or !sp for better search results (Google and Start Page respectively).

I still use Google Drive, Google Fi, and Gmail (moving to ProtonMail), but I've found awesome alternatives that improve on Google products:

- Orgzly - way better than Keep, and with Syncthing, I can edit task lists on my desktop with my preferred editor - Firefox - ad block on mobile is awesome, as is browser integration for Bitwarden - Signal - better than Hangouts for SMS, if only for the dark theme - andOTP - pin lock for second factor auth beats out Google's Authenticator app

I've been considering moving to NextCloud (tons of advantages over GSuite), but I'm having trouble replacing Google Sheets. Honestly, most of Google's products are mediocre, and it's really annoying switching to their flavor of the week (Google Talk -> Hangouts -> Allo -> Duo, Gmail redesign that runs like crap on Firefox, etc). I also wish there were compelling alternatives to YouTube (PeerTube looks interesting, but unlikely to get traction) and Android (Librem 5 might be good enough).

In trying to switch, I'm realizing how much better some options are once you get out of the Google ecosystem, but it's hard to kick the few strong products they have.

There's /e/ around the corner for a de-googlified Android experience. Sadly hardware support is limited at the moment.

LineageOS with microg supports loads of devices, more DIY though

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