What a Student Loan 'Bubble' Bursting Might Look Like
vice.com
vice.com
* Limiting the amount of money you can be loaned for majors that don't have good job prospects. People should turn to grants for these types of educations
* Increasing your interest rate if you miss class
* Increasing your interest rate for poor grade performance
Or looking at it another way the English and philosophy majors are subsidizing the cost of an engineering degree.
Edit: not a current student and graduated 10 years ago.
[1] http://crookedtimber.org/2013/08/14/humanities-science-is-no...
Same with missing class, they don't reduce someone's lifetime earnings, they just tell you how conscientious they are.
But extroversion is actually one of biggest contributors to lifetime earnings. Maybe if they miss a party we should increase their interest rate too.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_Tower_(2014_film) [2] http://www.omscs.gatech.edu/
A lot of what we're taught in higher education isn't particularly relevant to future job success. Does it really matter if I know that bananas likely reduced the need for agriculture in Africa, likely leading to the limited technological advancement in the region? Maybe, if I'm going into history or something, not not if I'm in a technical field.
I think we should put _less_ emphasis on college during high school, have more opportunities to try different fields in high school, and improve students' access to job demand and expected pay figures when choosing a degree. We should also make getting loans less easy and remove rules that prevent bankruptcy from erasing those loans (e.g. no more federal student loans). Ideally, by graduation, a student will either have a marketable certification, apprenticeship, or college level courses completed, and college will take 2-3 years for a bachelor's degree.
Also, let's remove most of the standardized testing. I'm convinced it's more harmful than helpful, especially in primary education.
In this case there is no bank to run on - people will just continue to have their wages/benefits garnished to continue to repay these loans that they are forever tied to. I feel like there's not really a "burst" that can happen - just that hopefully there can be some sort of debt forgiveness program or something that will alleviate the burden of the debts.
They can, it just has a higher bar of unaffordability before it can be discharged even in bankruptcy. OTOH, the higher the ratio of student loan debt to income becomes for typical borrowers, the more likely it is that there would be a wave of discharges.
Even without discharges, though, you can have an escalating problem of loans becoming worthless to those with the right to collect them; that the loan isn't legally discharged doesn't mean that the borrower isn't practically judgement-proof.
> The whole notion of bursting is people collectively realizing their folly and everyone scrambling as quickly as possible to make out with whatever they've got left - like a run on a bank.
No, not like a run on a bank, more like a panic sale of a marketable asset class, in this case student loan assets (or student loan asset backed securities, just like the mortgage-backed securities that went through the same thing around 2008.)
OTOH, this is really only likely to be a big issue with private, non-government-backed student loans, which exist and have high per-borrower balances, but are a minority of student loan debt.
On the federal side, increasing defaults mostly reduce the difference between loans and grants and probably push public policy away from generally-offered loans to more targeted (by some mix of need, individual merit, and social desirability of course of study) grants. (These also are marketed and privately collectable after the government originates them, but the government guarantee limits the risk of value crash.)
My (possibly inaccurate) summary is that they can be discharged if it would be impossible to live with a minimal standard of living while still paying off the loan.
More realistically you're going to get one of the other two options.
> Your loan may be partially discharged, and you will still be required to repay some portion of your loan.
> You may be required to repay your loan, but with different terms, such as a lower interest rate.
Interesting tidbit here is that half (yes, half) of the US government's financial assets are student loans.
It was discussed here previously -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16136330.
Something I find very hard to comprehend, tbh.
Fannie Mae is a publicly-traded, privately-owned corporation, despite being federally chartered for a public mission.
So, yes, their holdings are not counted in government holdings, because they aren't the government.
Which is why, their stock is worth a lot less than even their own book value.
All debt won't happen, because it will destroy a lot of assets - like pension funds.
But student debt... that could happen if it became clear that much of it was uncollectable because the kids didn't have the money, and weren't ever going to have the money. We're not there, yet, but we do seem to be heading that way.
Alternatively, student debt could be discharged through political means if the general public became galvanized into seeing student debt as a huge problem that is destroying many lives. Statistics won't produce that... but a very well-done movie might.
Student debt, pardon me. Allowing for limited discharge in special circumstances or general discharge in broader circumstances. The first could happen through the courts. The latter probably needs legislation.
The bar is higher, but not impossibly high.
But I don't think most people who are struggling to repay their student loan are in their 70s so there is no risk of elderly people dying all at once and leaving the government stranded with the huge debt.
> A lot of that has to do with what Goldfarb likes to call the narrative—one that convinced kids that the only route to middle-class respectability was to get a college degree and that suggested failing to do so meant having failed at the American dream of upward mobility. To keep using the economist's terms, I would also say that 18-year-old high school seniors definitely qualify as "novice investors." Their philosophy can be summarized by Colin Hanks in the 2002 movie Orange County. When asked why he's so obsessed with getting into Stanford University and college more generally, he snaps back, "Because that's what you do after high school!"
Too often I see articles about student debt make a comment about how students have been tricked or misled into pursuing a degree. Why does no one talk about the alternative?
Let's talk about the alternative: You don't get a degree and now you're resume gets automatically thrown out of most applications. Only a small fraction of those without degrees manage to get well-paying jobs; they're the outliers. Albeit unrelated to employment rate, look at the salary differences: https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2018/data-on-display/educa...
Some might say it's worth making $X/yr and debt-free than making $Y/yr with $Z debt but this only holds true when Y > (P*Z + X) where P is the percentage of the total initial debt being paid off per year (e.g. P = 0.2 if you're paying $10k/yr to get rid of a $50k debt). And these values are hard to predict.
The decision to get a degree is not a binary one. It's possible to get a degree in a higher-paying field. Or, go to a community college for 2 years and then transfer. Or pick a state school over a $60k/yr private school. Or choose your second choice school that offers more scholarships.
I think some of the blame rests on our guidance counselors and parents who often do little to make the connection between degrees, debt, and post-graduate earnings obvious to students. Too often the question we pose to high school juniors is "what do you like to do the most?" rather than "is there an intersection between something you like to do and opportunities for a degree-holder in that field after graduation?"
That said, getting that first job without the degree is the hard part—connections and luck play a huge role here. Everything after that becomes substantially easier, and the benefit of a degree becomes lower.
Whether it's better to start with the broader or the narrower learning first... well, that's debatable, and it might boil down to personal differences.
I've often felt, given the pedestrian nature of the problems I have to solve in code, he got the better end of the bargain.
He wants people to work hard and suck it up, instead of unionizing and fighting for fair treatment.
The cost isn't $100k. The minimum wage pays $15k per year [1]. Four years of lost wages equals $60,000. Add that to the tuition debt and you have a real cost of $160,000.
The surplus wage is apparently no more than $25k. Even here, we see a 15% return on investment. Not shoddy per se, and certainly a sustainable debt load.
[1] https://www.epi.org/publication/minimum-wage-workers-poverty...
Even if you do, you cannot just set all 40k to pay for it, you have to live somewhere and probably have a family, not insignificant expenses. So real repayment rate might be as low as 5k/year... and this assumes you keep in good health, do not get laid off etc. This is at best a 10 year debt for your typical middle class.
And where do you get a house here on top?
Is that because it's so much more difficult to get a well-paying job without a degree, or that people who are capable of getting and holding a well-paying job are disproportionately getting degrees?
The government would guarantee less student loans. This would be means some for profit institutions might shut down.
At any rate, I completely agree: the wealth of the average taxpaying citizen should not be used to pay the blackmail of too-big-too-fail financial engines holding public education for ransom.
Blackmailers should be arrested, tried, and sentenced to community service. Their demands should not be met.
Not a moderator - a reader with enough karma to be able to downvote (500 karma, IIRC).
In theory tuition is a great way to spend tax dollars because it creates better educated citizens who will earn more money (and pay more taxes). In practice it does seem to be more like monopoly money that props up sub-par schools and provides even worse education to those who could benefit from it the most.
Yikes.
By all means, provide public funding for public schools. That is common sense.
I agree with the first part but not the second; there is a good case for need (personal and societal, in the latter case by field of study with public service commitment, as we use currently, in a way, for military officers) and merit based grants for higher education. Government-guaranteed, generally available loans are a bad idea, though (and making them government issued, so the guarantee is just for the secondary market, doesn't make the bad idea good.)
I can see why there are rumblings of loan forgiveness, as it has metastasized into something truly horrible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage#Definition
Mass exploitation of a population is best done when you can advise them to act in your best interest while convincing them its in their own, and that's best done from a position of authority.
If the health of society was a primary concern then the conflicting profit motive would have been legislated out of existence, so we could maximize the benefits of an educated population for the least cost.
> I hated the film adaptation of The Big Short. The acting was good and it did have a surprising amount of energy for a story that centers around men in suits doing math. But I felt condescended to. Maybe director Adam McKay tested an original cut—one minus Margot Robbie—and realized a good amount of the audience couldn't follow the plot without having a sexy lady in a bathtub break the fourth wall to explain subprime mortgages and the financial crisis.
Sounds awfully pompous, like it came from r/iamverysmart. Much of the impetus behind The Big Short certainly was to break down the 2008 financial crisis to those that aren't economics/finance wonks, or for whom a narrative holds more weight than a several-hundred page non-fiction book about it.
It's not that I want journalists to coddle their audience, I just think it's a bad look to completely dump on other creators to inflate one's ego while trying to make a point.
How about this, which still includes a bit of criticism of the director (but milder):
"While the film adaptation of The Big Short had good acting and a surprising amount of energy for a story that centers around men in suits doing math, it wasn't exactly my cup of tea. Perhaps it's because I felt Adam McKay didn't trust his audience quite enough to understand the ins-and-outs of complex subprime mortgages and the financial crisis, instead falling back on gimmicks like having Margot Robbie in a bathtub break the fourth wall to explain it all.
"In some ways, America's student-debt crisis is a lot simpler than all that."
I don't know, maybe that's not any better: and maybe by criticizing the author I've become the thing I set out to...criticize. Whatever.
Combined with the newfound belief that, you must, and in fact, are entitled to go to college, "demand" goes up too.
The result is students racking up needless debt when they probably shouldn't have gone to college to begin with. College is NOT the only option to build a successful career, but in America, with no degree, you're seemingly sub-par in the eyes of our backwards society.
So, who wins? All these "Not-for-profit Universities" whose profit margins (non-profit, doesn't mean that aren't profit-ABLE) are probably better than many Fortune 500 companies.
The solution is to dry up the source of loan money, reduce the pumped up demand for bogus degrees kids are getting and encourage young people to consider other career options. You don't need a piece of paper to be successful.
in the USA and other places colleges repeat for first two years same course in High school...Indiana and some other states now rewards HS students taking the get out of college courses tests now with free 2-year degrees to reduce student debt on 4 year degrees
Putting people into massive amounts of debt in exchange for a shot at a prosperous future puts a lot of pressure on them to rake in the dough, which I fear is going to corrode the morality of those going into high-paying institutionalized positions. In effect you are looking at the upper-middle-classes of the economy starting out with a big incentive to stratify because everything they have worked for rides on being able to pay off those loans - a toxic praxis.
On the other hand, if you are a policymaker for a nation's central bank, then this might be your strategy for ensuring your workforce produces measurable value.
Imagine a collective movement of 9,000,000 all ceasing to pay their student loans at once. If I thought all my friends weren’t planning on repaying, I would be quick to join them. Is the government really going to dig thousands of dollars from the bank accounts of millions of people at once?
Once there are enough people in enough pain that it turns them into single-issue voters on this issue, someone will create taxpayer-funded relief.
If it's a Democratic-led solution, it'll probably be in the form of massively expanded support for universities that eliminates the cost entirely, or reduces it to what one might be able to reasonably earn/save at a minimum wage job.
If it's a Republican-led solution, it'll probably be in the form of creating a tax-deferred savings account for college, combined with subsidized work-study program.
Both parties will probably agree to bail out degree holders who can't pay after a certain number of years. They will probably also force cost cutting reforms on schools.
You don't need the full college experience, but as the article mentions, getting away from home is a part of it for most.
In other words, the Army.
As funding was cut to public services over the years, the housing was sold off to private buyers and replaced with grant schemes. Unfortunately the grants have not increased at the rate of rent and housing, leaving many junior public workers worse off. It is in my opinion potentially contributing to a public worker shortage at the very least [1].
The armed forces kept much of their housing due to their bigger budget, but less group housing has meant worse economies of scale, and many of these buildings have become horribly dilapidated, lacking basic amenities [2].
Currently, there is no downward pressure on either universities or banking institutions for tuition rates or amount of money lent in student aid, because the government guarantees repayment. As a result, tuition rises every year far faster than inflation, and banks are happy to join in the reaping of the profits. Capping repayment rates would correct both of those issues, as the ROI goes down significantly over a certain total amount lent, if indeed the sum total can be repaid within a lifetime.
This would additionally ensure that while student loans are available to all students, all parties involved (student, bank, university) have an interest in ensuring the student will be able to pay back the loans, as opposed to now, where two parties have an interest in loaning as much as possible, and one child has conflicting interests.
This would additionally force some accountability on universities for their programs. For-Profit institutions, which currently largely exist to gather tuition money while providing no real educational value would suddenly become unprofitable, and collapse. Simply put: if your graduating students make little money after graduation, their rate of repayment will be significantly smaller than an institution that provides actionable skills.
Similarly, this would incentivize universities to ensure that all of their students are pursuing reasonable / coherent career paths. Currently, universities have the dual incentives to ensure that their students that go on to significant success and high paying industries do so (alumni donations), but also to collect as much tuition/room/board etc as possible from their existing students. This change would negate impact of the this second option.
This would allow students who go to expensive schools to go into lower paying professions. This would allow students with the best and most expensive education to pursue all types of jobs (for example, teaching), not just the jobs best fit to pay down their debt.
This would cap how punitive the accrued debt can be to the graduating student, and resolve the original issue mentioned in the article: student debt is now so overwhelming, it is preventing a generation from entering financial adulthood.
And lastly, this is just a guess and could be wrong, but I would paradoxically expect that in addition to all of the above changes, capping repayment rates would also result in lower amounts of student debt willingly taken on by students. This is for the simple reason that it is easy to rationalize "I'll be able to pay back {Insert_Any_Abstract_Dollar_Figure_Here} once I graduate and get my dream job", but everyone intrinsically would understand: "If I take out this loan, I'll be paying 10% of my income for the next 30 years"
Also, there’s the public service loan forgiveness program (10 yrs public service job -> discharged loan balance).
[1] https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/understand/plans
DeVos's administration has only approved 206 borrowers for public service loan forgiveness.[1]
[1]https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/12/27/studen...